Part 3: The Quest for the Perfect Tune

[fika]

It's not possible because there is no ABS integration to apply the brakes. Having the car standing without the brakes applied is very dangerous.

How does Tesla accomplish this?

I'm guessing prj means that there is no blended braking control for the regen system in the computer. Since Porsche didn't program a true OPD system from the beginning, prj cannot just add that functionality in.

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[prj]

How does Tesla accomplish this?

By applying the brakes via the ABS once the car is stationary. As you come to a stop on the motors if you pay attention you can hear and feel how it applies the brakes to hold the car in place.

The Taycan has no such functionality, so even if I calibrate the ASG to make it stationary on the motors, it will not apply the brakes.
If now someone gets rear ended and pushed into oncoming traffic due to that, then I will be responsible for injury or worse.

So I am not touching this functionality. The driver must have the foot on the brake or engage hold with the brake.

 

[prj]

I'm guessing prj means that there is no blended braking control for the regen system in the computer. Since Porsche didn't program a true OPD system from the beginning, prj cannot just add that functionality in.

Tesla has no brake blending whatsoever. There's only regen and when you touch the brakes it applies physical brakes. The OPD is a workaround for an engineering failure.

I don't think I can make the ASG apply hold mode through the ABS automatically, so no can do with ASG mods on Taycan.

 

[fika]

Tesla has no brake blending whatsoever. There's only regen and when you touch the brakes it applies physical brakes. The OPD is a workaround for an engineering failure.

I don't think I can make the ASG apply hold mode through the ABS automatically, so no can do with ASG mods on Taycan.

for regen, no blending, but for OPD and coming to a stop, it does engage the mechanical brakes. that's all I meant.

 

[Zcd1]

OPD is a workaround for an engineering failure….

It’s interesting that you see this feature as a failure, since in my experience it’s the one of the features most EV owners end up liking the most.

Tesla’s OPD is also by far the smoothest overall that I’ve experienced, with *perfect* transitions when the accelerator position is changed.

 

[prj]

It’s interesting that you see this feature as a failure, since in my experience it’s the one of the features most EV owners end up liking the most.

I personally hate it. I like Porsche's solution much more. My wife hates it too.
You have much more precise control with two pedals rather than one, it is also inefficient to always regenerate by default. It is more efficient to coast and engage the regen only when needed.

Tesla can't blend the brakes. Something Toyota did great with their very first international Prius in 2003.
Porsche can. So when you push the brake pedal the brake calipers do not actually move until you exceed the regeneration threshold. Whereas on a Tesla every time you push the brake you engage the real brakes.
Also, the facelift Taycan has literally over 5x the regen capability of a Model 3 for example. You can't control that with a single pedal. I tested it for fun, and it's undrivable.

Hence, because they could not get the blended brake system operational, they did the "one pedal" driving and lauded it as the next best thing. But it's not. It's objectively worse than blended brakes - more wasteful of energy and less precise.

And tbh, if you just want yourself to be driven to the destination, you can just use adaptive cruise control. Then you have ZPD - zero pedal driving, especially in traffic.

But this is just my opinion. But my opinion does not matter. If people ask for more regen, I do my best to calibrate the regen. It's as simple as that. How I feel about the subject matter is irrelevant and it does not make me do a better or worse job. If someone wants to drive their Taycan with one pedal, they now can, except in stop and go traffic - but there you should be using innodrive anyway.

Tesla’s OPD is also by far the smoothest overall that I’ve experienced, with *perfect* transitions when the accelerator position is changed.

Well, according to the Tesla guy who tested it, he liked my setup more and he complained how abrupt the regen comes in when you lift off the throttle. I did that a little softer.
The reason also tesla has those transitions is because it's damped to hell. If I did that on a more performance oriented car (e.g. Taycan), then everyone would complain that the pedal response isn't sharp enough.

Believe it or not, it's just how much filtering you add in a few maps, all there is to it. I like to think I found a pretty good balance between smoothness and response. It's more biased towards response than Tesla when pushing the pedal, but doesn't hit as hard as Tesla when sharply lifting - there is just enough smoothing that it doesn't feel like someone punched you in the gut.

The thing that Tesla did well was the ABS calibration that engages and releases the brakes when you come to a stop and take off. That's indeed very smooth, and in my opinion works better than on the Taycan.

Anyway, after 25 revisions, I think I'm finally done

 

[Zcd1]

Tesla CHOSE not to do blended braking.

It’s also interesting that nearly every Porsche EV review mentions that OPD should at least be an option.

Anyway, we all like what we like, but it’s a fact that the vast majority of EV owners (Porsche EV owners not included, but there are comparatively few of those) prefer OPD.

 

[prj]

Tesla CHOSE not to do blended braking.

Yes, because it is cheaper not to do it, and it is extremely difficult to get right. if they had the budget and/or the knowhow they would have done it. Tesla's amount of regen is pitiful compared to e.g. Ioniq 5, Kia EV6 and many others. Because you can't control 200+kW of regen with the accelerator pedal.

Anyway, we all like what we like, but it’s a fact that the vast majority of EV owners (Porsche EV owners not included, but there are comparatively few of those) prefer OPD.

Absolutely not, please speak for yourself. Just because someone yells in a really loud voice does not make him more important.

Anyway, it's really apples to oranges at this point. You can't drive a car fast with OPD, you can't OPD on the track, you can't control the cornering entry speeds correctly etc. If you just want to get from point A to point B then it makes zero sense to buy a Taycan in the first place. This is why Porsche did it this way, and if you don't like it, you can always choose not to buy one. Simple as that.

Could they have done a one pedal mode? Absolutely. Ioniq 5 N has one, and has blended brakes. But just as Tesla forces you into one pedal driving so the car works as designed, Porsche forces you into blended braking, so the car works as designed.

My solution is a middle ground - the car stays perfectly safe (foot forced on brake during stop) and you get more lift-off regen than on a Tesla. Basically like a more heavily regenerating Tesla with Creep enabled.
All of it controlled with the push of a button without interfering with the "regen off" mode or the adaptive cruise control.

 

[jakeCT]

Just adding my perspective as someone who exclusively drove Tesla for years (and alternating to it about every other day)- The Taycan has been refreshingly good to drive and I do like its implementation of regen. I worried about this prior to ownership and thought it was going to be a hard transition / dealbreaker but that has not been the case at all. With recuperation set to On, it decelerates smoothly like my prior rotary-engined ICE (RX-8), and the audio feedback from ESS as it winds down is also a similar experience.

On Tesla, I only drive on Regen: Roll which requires the application of the brake pedal to fully-stop. I strongly dislike Regen: Hold (full one-pedal operation) setting which I hear is forced on all 2024+ Teslas. No thank you.

 

[prj]

@jakeCT if you want to try the updated regen software, just let me know, it can always be rolled back to what it is currently.

 

[Hirschaj]

Not only do I hate OPD as a driver, I also hate driving behind cars with OPD and seeing those brake lights constantly flicking on and off because the driver is over modulating the pedal. Annoying AF. But I have no problem with those who love it and I agree that Porsche should offer it as an extra mode.

 

[jakeCT]

I just did a brief drive with the updated tune, with regen. Attached is the G-meter being freshly reset, the deceleration number of 0.26 G at the top is purely from the regen (no brake pedal applied). It’s much stronger yet smoother than my LR RWD Model 3. It slows the car down to nearly a rest (~2 mph) at which point the car is propelling itself forward (Porsche’s simulation of an automatic torque converter).

Great job @prj on realizing the ability to flash the unit. It’s done in a similar fashion as the original software and using the E-Net cable, MapEV authorizing the unlock on his end with my VIN and flashing being a quick process. The update process was Tesla-esque, though a bit more involved (turning ignition on, pressing button on the PC, turning ignition off, pressing another button on PC, etc) with the car making funny sounds with the ESS and the windows rolling down slightly and headlights adjusting several times. Slightly scary but very cool.

 

[Mr.Smith]

Yes, because it is cheaper not to do it, and it is extremely difficult to get right. if they had the budget and/or the knowhow they would have done it. Tesla's amount of regen is pitiful compared to e.g. Ioniq 5, Kia EV6 and many others. Because you can't control 200+kW of regen with the accelerator pedal.


Absolutely not, please speak for yourself. Just because someone yells in a really loud voice does not make him more important.

Anyway, it's really apples to oranges at this point. You can't drive a car fast with OPD, you can't OPD on the track, you can't control the cornering entry speeds correctly etc. If you just want to get from point A to point B then it makes zero sense to buy a Taycan in the first place. This is why Porsche did it this way, and if you don't like it, you can always choose not to buy one. Simple as that.

Could they have done a one pedal mode? Absolutely. Ioniq 5 N has one, and has blended brakes. But just as Tesla forces you into one pedal driving so the car works as designed, Porsche forces you into blended braking, so the car works as designed.

My solution is a middle ground - the car stays perfectly safe (foot forced on brake during stop) and you get more lift-off regen than on a Tesla. Basically like a more heavily regenerating Tesla with Creep enabled.
All of it controlled with the push of a button without interfering with the "regen off" mode or the adaptive cruise control.

The more I'm improving in driving in canyons, the more I'm understanding the importance of weight transfer, the Porsche Regen philosophy makes the most sense.

I drive all of my the other EVs in One Pedal, but I have no desire for the for that in an EV sports car.

 

[whitex]

Tesla has no brake blending whatsoever.

From what I've read, the latest model Y will do brake blending, at least on the Chinese models.

 

[prj]

From what I've read, the latest model Y will do brake blending, at least on the Chinese models.

Only took them 20 years.

"One of the things we did with this car that's super unique is we actually have a pedal that has a separate hydraulic channel to the brake system so that when we're driving all of the regen and all of the braking can be put into the motor and the battery as much as possible and we can actually do blending on both the accelerator pedal and the brake pedal so we get as much energy back as we can and that way you get the most efficient vehicle possible"

"Super unique" - like what everyone else has been doing for the past 20 years

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