150KW retrofit

[daveo4EV]

Made me think of trans oceanic travel industry. At first they only had ships. Then these 2 brothers invented an airplane, which seemed completely benign to the ships industry until larger passenger planes were developed and airlines started selling cross oceanic tickets - faster, cheaper (even though air travel was rather expensive compared to today). So what happened to people traveling on ships? Well, it turned into cruise industry - selling the experience, the prestige, rather than travel utility.

Perhaps that is where Porsche is heading with their ICE cars - status symbols, show/collector cars, attention magnets, emotional driving experiences. They will have to adjust their marketing though, just like ship companies had to do, nobody cares if you can get someone from Paris to new York in 7 days instead of 10 - a metric which might have had marketing value before commercial airliners. I am not sure what marketing metrics Porsche could use for their ICE lineup. Things which come to mind would be:

• Limited editions, charge more money for exclusivity
• High customization for car individualization, such as PTS+
• Racing performance in some ultra-light endurance categories - weight limit combined with long distances will keep EVs out of the picture for those (at least for now). Think next generation go-karts

Then they could then market EV's as a different segment, though would have to limit the overlap between the two (so for example, remove exclusivity and customization from EVs) until the ICE car become a niche market. Maybe they could spin off the Porsche EV lineup to a new brand completely - call it ePorsche, or PORSCHe ?

this is a great analogy - something like this is going on for Porsche with the transition to EV's - their decades old business model doesn't mesh with EV's…

new brand for Porsche EV's…

PorschEV or FerdinandEV

they may have missed the boat by not branding their EV's under a new moniker - they are now muddled with their EV's having to fit into their ICE ladder - trim, permformance, pricing - they can't "Move" the EV's around in the ladder with out undermining the ICE pricing ladder…

In July 2025, Porsche CEO Oliver Blume stated, “The business model that sustained us over many decades no longer is functioning today in its current form”

the business model was premium prices for a premium performance product - competition was prevented via technical complexity that only Porsche had mastered or could tolerate - pricing was supported by no one else offering the performance at any price…with the reliability - EV's wiped that competitive advantage and pricing premium right off the map…hence the quote above…there is no barrier to entry for competitor to match Porsche on performance in the EV space…

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[whitex]

they may have missed the boat by not branding their EV's under a new moniker - they are now muddled with their EV's having to fit into their ICE ladder - trim, permformance, pricing - they can't "Move" the EV's around in the ladder with out undermining the ICE pricing ladder…

Worse, they not only kept it within the brand, they kept the model names the same with Macan and Cayenne (and probably future cars in the lineup like Cayman/Boxter). They departed with the Taycan (could have called if Panamera EV), but then circled right back to reuse the ICE names.

 

[Tooney]

So, it's Expensive. So What? The 2027 Porsche 911 Is the Benchmark Supercar For Damn Good Reasons - Car & Driver

 

[daveo4EV]

So, it's Expensive. So What? The 2027 Porsche 911 Is the Benchmark Supercar For Damn Good Reasons - Car & Driver

Porsche started with the 911 (and other sports cars) - they almost went out of business - the Boxser and subsequently the Cayenne blostered/saved the company - the Macan (probably the base model) is their top seller…

the 911 will remain and it's enormously profitable - EV's however are good for non-sports car usage and the trend is more EV in non-sports car area's…

if Porsche walks away from EV's they will be back to the 911 - the question is can the 911 be sufficient to support/sustain the company…because while their EV products are excellent products, they are not price competitive vs. similar EV products from other vendors…

 

[whitex]

if Porsche walks away from EV's they will be back to the 911 - the question is can the 911 be sufficient to support/sustain the company…because while their EV products are excellent products, they are not price competitive vs. similar EV products from other vendors…

You could lookup Porsche size and financial performance from the pre-Boxter days, that would tell you what size they will need to shrink to if they go back to this model. That is of course assuming the market for 911/718 is the same as it was before, but I suspect EV’s have chipped away some of that market too.

 

[chun]

Made me think of trans oceanic travel industry. At first they only had ships. Then these 2 brothers invented an airplane, which seemed completely benign to the ships industry until larger passenger planes were developed and airlines started selling cross oceanic tickets - faster, cheaper (even though air travel was rather expensive compared to today). So what happened to people traveling on ships? Well, it turned into cruise industry - selling the experience, the prestige, rather than travel utility.

Perhaps that is where Porsche is heading with their ICE cars - status symbols, show/collector cars, attention magnets, emotional driving experiences. They will have to adjust their marketing though, just like ship companies had to do, nobody cares if you can get someone from Paris to new York in 7 days instead of 10 - a metric which might have had marketing value before commercial airliners. I am not sure what marketing metrics Porsche could use for their ICE lineup. Things which come to mind would be:

• Limited editions, charge more money for exclusivity
• High customization for car individualization, such as PTS+
• Racing performance in some ultra-light endurance categories - weight limit combined with long distances will keep EVs out of the picture for those (at least for now). Think next generation go-karts

They could then market EV's as a different segment, though would have to limit the overlap between the two (so for example, remove exclusivity and customization from EVs) until the ICE car become a niche market. Maybe they could spin off the Porsche EV lineup to a new brand completely - call it ePorsche, or PORSCHe ?

Unless they choose to go mega premium, like ferrari, or even more like bugatti, it's not happening.
They cannot be status symbol ICE cars at their volume, by regulations.

By 2035, to meet the fleet-average CO₂ emissions target, 90% of the cars they sell need to be EVs if they want to keep the same volume of "premium" 911s and 918 equivalent they sell, hell, even their lower spec 911s might need to be EVs at that point. Unlike UK, these targets have not moved, and are progressing nicely on its way to mee 55% reduction by 2030 - when compared to 2021, and over 90% by 2035.

Or maybe they stop producing new cars, and become a shop dedicated to classic cars produced prior to 2035.

Or maybe they become a syntehtic e-fuel exclusive company, and solve the distribution and manufacturing problem at scale, while allowing for a full tank of fuel to cost less than 1000$ - a fool's errand, as many other companies have already agreed it being, and as proven by the "hydrogen car race" failure.

Ferrari is introducting EVs and hybrid in their lineup, and their volumes are already much smaller - less than 10.000 cars/year to allow them exceptions; to accomodate for the handful of limited series ICE cars (less than 1000 per year) that they will be selling for millions while staying within the emission targets.

Porsche will either have to pivot to low volume premium cars, like Ferrari, or go EV and keep their volume - and they will have to be competitive with other EVs if they go that route. If they don't, they will have to be competitive with Ferrari, bugatti, and other premium brands .

 

[chun]

@Administrator the thread derailed quite a bit, maybe you can move the last 2 pages here: https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...-may-be-in-trouble….22898/page-52#post-549878

 

[whitex]

Unless they choose to go mega premium, like ferrari, or even more like bugatti, it's not happening.
They cannot be status symbol ICE cars at their volume, by regulations.

By 2035, to meet the fleet-average CO₂ emissions target, 90% of the cars they sell need to be EVs if they want to keep the same volume of "premium" 911s and 918 equivalent they sell, hell, even their lower spec 911s might need to be EVs at that point. Unlike UK, these targets have not moved, and are progressing nicely on its way to mee 55% reduction by 2030 - when compared to 2021, and over 90% by 2035.

Or maybe they stop producing new cars, and become a shop dedicated to classic cars produced prior to 2035.

Or maybe they become a syntehtic e-fuel exclusive company, and solve the distribution and manufacturing problem at scale, while allowing for a full tank of fuel to cost less than 1000$ - a fool's errand, as many other companies have already agreed it being, and as proven by the "hydrogen car race" failure.

Ferrari is introducting EVs and hybrid in their lineup, and their volumes are already much smaller - less than 10.000 cars/year to allow them exceptions; to accomodate for the handful of limited series ICE cars (less than 1000 per year) that they will be selling for millions while staying within the emission targets.

Porsche will either have to pivot to low volume premium cars, like Ferrari, or go EV and keep their volume - and they will have to be competitive with other EVs if they go that route. If they don't, they will have to be competitive with Ferrari, bugatti, and other premium brands .

Could they just buy EV credits from the likes of Tesla?

 

[chun]

Could they just buy EV credits from the likes of Tesla?

No, the end goal is to reduce pollution, no to mask it or offshore it

 

[whitex]

No, the end goal is to reduce pollution, no to mask it or offshore it

I thought your point was that the issue is satisfying regulators, which should be solvable with EV credits (average consumption, etc). If Porsche focuses on higher priced cars, they can afford to include EV credits costs per car.

 

[chun]

I thought your point was that the issue is satisfying regulators, which should be solvable with EV credits (average consumption, etc). If Porsche focuses on higher priced cars, they can afford to include EV credits costs per car.

Under the original EU framework, a manufacturer could use pooling/credits temporarily to help meet fleet targets, but as the allowed fleet CO₂ approached zero by 2035, the math became impossible

Unless porsche sells like 50 cars, it’s not happening. And if they choose to sell 50 cars only, good luck to them.

 

[prj]

This is also why the manufacturer stocks did not react at all when the decision from the commission came about "90%" reduction instead of "100%". Even though on the forum here and on social media people were raving about it...

It does not change a thing.

For each ICE you have to sell 9 EV then - economically makes no difference... and very hard to justify RnD costs for ICE unless you sell the ICE car at crazy prices.

Anyway it is quite likely that in 10 years almost nobody will want a new ICE anyway in EU. Just compare what was in 2015 to what is now and it's the same kind of comparison. Most likely new EV sold in 2035 will charge at about the same speed as you can fill a gasoline car, have similar range and the charging network will be also much better.

With servicing costs being much lower for new buyers there will be a mass switch.

 

[whitex]

For each ICE you have to sell 9 EV then - economically makes no difference... and very hard to justify RnD costs for ICE unless you sell the ICE car at crazy prices.

Why not just buy EV credits from someone like Tesla who doesn't need them, since they only make EVs? Even at a $1,000 per car, it's $9,000 added to each Porsche, if they only sell 911's above $150K, they can make it $159K without losing too many customers.

With servicing costs being much lower for new buyers there will be a mass switch.

I don't know. My Taycan spends more time in service than any ICE I ever owned. Sure, that is covered by the manufacturer in the first 3 or 4 years, but after that, it falls on the end user. My Teslas required much less maintenance (a few visits after production to correct some manufacturing misses, but then years without any maintenance other than tires, wipers, and 12V batteries), but if you add up all the time spent it service in the first 2 years of their life, still more per car than the 911 I had (which required exactly one service visit in the first 2 years of its life, other than tires which I did outside the dealership, as I usually do with tires).

 

[Zcd1]

Good idea…

 

[prj]

Why not just buy EV credits from someone like Tesla who doesn't need them

Not a thing in EU.

I don't know. My Taycan spends more time in service than any ICE I ever owned. Sure, that is covered by the manufacturer in the first 3 or 4 years, but after that, it falls on the end user. My Teslas required much less maintenance (a few visits after production to correct some manufacturing misses, but then years without any maintenance other than tires, wipers, and 12V batteries), but if you add up all the time spent it service in the first 2 years of their life, still more per car than the 911 I had (which required exactly one service visit in the first 2 years of its life, other than tires which I did outside the dealership, as I usually do with tires).

Was not talking about the Taycan here.

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