150KW retrofit

[whitex]

It's very unlikely Porsche would ever add such an option. They are more likely to remove available upgrades, for example they got rid of Feature On Demand and 22kW OBC retrofit options. Someone, someday may figure it out, but it will be some hobbyist with a passion for this and the upgrade will not be warrantied by Porsche.

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[W1NGE]

I read today that Mercedes have made similar mistakes on some models but are now retrofitting the converter.

Enter BMW iX3 which has the feature by default and a 22kW AC onboard charger can be added for a bargain price of £675 (a third of what Porsche were charging). Slightly off topic but the AWD ix3 M50 is a veritable bargain with pretty much all toys for £71K (including tow hitch) and a range which is likely to put the Macan, Taycan and Cayenne EVs to shame. A 5 year service plan for £650 (includes brake fluid changes). Final off topic word - 2K more than a base Macan EV.

 

[Flying ace]

I read today that Mercedes have made similar mistakes on some models but are now retrofitting the converter.

Enter BMW iX3 which has the feature by default and a 22kW AC onboard charger can be added for a bargain price of £675 (a third of what Porsche were charging). Slightly off topic but the AWD ix3 M50 is a veritable bargain with pretty much all toys for £71K (including tow hitch) and a range which is likely to put the Macan, Taycan and Cayenne EVs to shame. A 5 year service plan for £650 (includes brake fluid changes). Final off topic word - 2K more than a base Macan EV.

I played around with the ix3 configurator. A full out M Sport build is $80k.

This car is going to wipe the competition off the map.

 

[W1NGE]

I played around with the ix3 configurator. A full out M Sport build is $80k.

This car is going to wipe the competition off the map.

...and then there's the pending iX4.

 

[prj]

I read today that Mercedes have made similar mistakes on some models but are now retrofitting the converter.

Enter BMW iX3 which has the feature by default and a 22kW AC onboard charger can be added for a bargain price of £675 (a third of what Porsche were charging). Slightly off topic but the AWD ix3 M50 is a veritable bargain with pretty much all toys for £71K (including tow hitch) and a range which is likely to put the Macan, Taycan and Cayenne EVs to shame. A 5 year service plan for £650 (includes brake fluid changes). Final off topic word - 2K more than a base Macan EV.

The iX3 is the death of the Macan if people get over the styling. One is a spaceship the other one is a car.

Porsche stock has ran up a bunch again, might be time to short it

 

[Flying ace]

The iX3 is the death of the Macan if people get over the styling. One is a spaceship the other one is a car.

Porsche stock has ran up a bunch again, might be time to short it

Porsche Macan is a lifestyle brand/product lol

 

[W1NGE]

The iX3 is the death of the Macan if people get over the styling. One is a spaceship the other one is a car.

Porsche stock has ran up a bunch again, might be time to short it

Neither are "pretty' but bang for buck and a lot of spare change there is nothing to compare.

@Porsche - wakeup, smell the coffee and reduce your pricing. People will vote with their wallets otherwise.

 

[Tooney]

The iX3 is the death of the Macan if people get over the styling.

+ 1 about getting over the styling

 

[daveo4EV]

Neither are "pretty' but bang for buck and a lot of spare change there is nothing to compare.

@Porsche - wakeup, smell the coffee and reduce your pricing. People will vote with their wallets otherwise.

Prosche can't complete (reduce pricing) on their EV's without undermining the current ICE Pricing trim/ladder…this the "core" in my opinion of how "their business model no longer works"…

$57.5k - Model Y AWD Performance - 3.3 sec 306 miles range
$61.5k - BMW iX3 Base - 4.7 sec 463 HP 400'ish miles range
$65.4k - ICE Macan Base - 6.0 sec 261 HP
$71.1k - ICE Macan T - 5.8 sec 261 HP
$78.9k -ICE Macan S - 4.6 sec 375 HP
$79.8k - BMW iX3 _FULLY OPTIONED_ 4.7 seconds 463 HP lives here in the pricing points…
$94.2k - ICE Macan GTS - 4.3 sec 434 HP

$57.5k - Model Y AWD Performance - 3.3 sec 306 miles range
$61.5k - BMW iX3 Base - 4.7 sec 463 HP 400'ish miles range
$79.8k - BMW iX3 _FULLY OPTIONED_ 4.7 seconds 463 HP 400'ish miles range
$80.3k - EV Macan Based 5.4 sec 355 HP
$84k - EV Macan 4 4.9 sec 402 HP
$89.9k - EV Macan 4S 3.9 sec 509 HP
$105.3k - EV Macan GTS 3.6 sec 563 HP
$112.7k - EV Macan Turbo 3.1 sec 630 HP

the EV pricing points "slot-in" to about the correct spot on their pricing tiers delivering similar acceleration/HP for similar price points…lowering the price of EV's destroy's this symmetry and consistency and value equation…

Porsche is being disingenuous when they have "pivoted" from EV's with the story that there is no demand for EV's - the lack of demand for EV's is patently false and easily demonstrated to be false, just take China as an example - there is no lack of demand for EV's in china - it's a lack of demand for a $200k Taycan vs. a $40k EV with similar stats - there is plenty of demand for EV's in china - there just in no demand for EV's at Porsche's historical price points based on performance inflicted pricing…

Porsche's pricing on ICE's is protected by mechanical complexity required to achieve Porsche's performance metrics - competitors lack the ability and/or willingness to engage Prosche because of the technical challenges to overcome the technical complexities to achieve Porsche's performance and reliability with their mechanical products (ICE vehicles) - there is no such technical "moat" for completetors to complete with Porsche on performance for EV's - so they can offer similar/idential/superior performance as Porsche at much cheaper price points - Porsche has no technical "moat" protecting their pricing anymore…they are screwed with EV's as they lack any special sauce or reason to buy Porsche's mechanically superior ICE drive trains…hence their pivot back to ICE vehicles where they have dominance and can charge for it…

_IF_ they lower the Macan EV pricing to be completitve but still "more" than BMW's offering (or any other EV for that matter) the EV products are now superior choice's at lower prices than _ALL_ of their ICE offerings

Porsche's trims/tiers/ladder buys you 0-60 time and HP - and currently the pricing teirs/trim/ladders fits across the entire product line - competitively prices EV's would decimate the pricing points of their ICE products…destroying margins, residual value, and their pricing points for their entire fleet of products…

Porsche is screwed…

my $0.02 YMMV

 

[Zcd1]

Prosche can't complete (reduce pricing) on their EV's without undermining the current ICE Pricing trim/ladder…this the "core" in my opinion of how "their business model no longer works"…

$65.4k - ICE Macan Base - 6.0 sec 261 HP
$71.1k - ICE Macan T - 5.8 sec 261 HP
$78.9k -ICE Macan S - 4.6 sec 375 HP
$94.2k - ICE Macan GTS - 4.3 sec 434 HP

$80.3k - EV Macan Based 5.4 sec 355 HP
$84k - EV Macan 4 4.9 sec 402 HP
$89.9k - EV Macan 4S 3.9 sec 509 HP
$105.3k - EV Macan GTS 3.6 sec 563 HP
$112.7k - EV Macan Turbo 3.1 sec 630 HP

the EV pricing points "slot-in" to about the correct spot on their pricing tiers delivering similar acceleration/HP for similar price points…lowering the price of EV's destroy's this symmetry and consistency and value equation…

Porsche is being disingenuous when they have "pivoted" from EV's with the story that there is no demand for EV's - the lack of demand for EV's is patently false and easily demonstrated to be false, just take China as an example - there is no lack of demand for EV's in china - it's a lack of demand for a $200k Taycan vs. a $40k EV with similar stats - there is plenty of demand for EV's in china - there just in no demand for EV's at Porsche's historical price points based on performance inflicted pricing…

Porsche's pricing on ICE's is protected by mechanical complexity required to achieve Porsche's performance metrics - competitors lack the ability and/or willingness to engage Prosche because of the technical challenges to overcome the technical complexities to achieve Porsche's performance and reliability with their mechanical products (ICE vehicles) - there is no such technical "moat" for completetors to complete with Porsche on performance for EV's - so they can offer similar/idential/superior performance as Porsche at much cheaper price points - Porsche has no technical "moat" protecting their pricing anymore…they are screwed with EV's as they lack any special sauce or reason to buy Porsche's mechanically superior ICE drive trains…hence their pivot back to ICE vehicles where they have dominance and can charge for it…

_IF_ they lower the Macan EV pricing to be completitve but still "more" than BMW's offering (or any other EV for that matter) the EV products are now superior choice's at lower prices than _ALL_ of their ICE offerings

Porsche's trims/tiers/ladder buys you 0-60 time and HP - and currently the pricing teirs/trim/ladders fits across the entire product line - competitively prices EV's would decimate the pricing points of their ICE products…destroying margins, residual value, and their pricing points for their entire fleet of products…

Porsche is screwed…

my $0.02 YMMV

I attempted to make this same point a few months ago and was roundly lambasted for “not understanding” the model hierarchy.

That said, this is exactly Porsche’s (or Prosche’s) current predicament.

 

[daveo4EV]

I attempted to make this same point a few months ago and was roundly lambasted for “not understanding” the model hierarchy.

That said, this is exactly Porsche’s (or Prosche’s) current predicament.

you and I agree on Porsche's core problems - EV's are an existential threat to Porsche _IF_ they had to compete - they are choosing not to complete and focus on ICE vehicle's where they have the ability to defend their margins…there is a massive technical moat for any ICE vendor to encroach on Porsche's territory and even if they did they wouldn't be undercutting Porsche on pricing IMHO…

but in EV-land things are different there is virtually _NOTHING_ preventing anyone from completing with Porsche and in many ways their are better than porsche (software for just one example) and cheaper…

Porsche's published strategy seems to be a return and increase on complex mechanical products that they can charge a premium for to people willing to have that type of product - it wil be high margin and decreasing volume, but there will be no competition or pricing pressure…this is not the case with EV's going forward.

 

[W1NGE]

Prosche can't complete (reduce pricing) on their EV's without undermining the current ICE Pricing trim/ladder…this the "core" in my opinion of how "their business model no longer works"…

$57.5k - Model Y AWD Performance - 3.3 sec 306 miles range
$61.5k - BMW iX3 Base - 4.7 sec 463 HP 400'ish miles range
$65.4k - ICE Macan Base - 6.0 sec 261 HP
$71.1k - ICE Macan T - 5.8 sec 261 HP
$78.9k -ICE Macan S - 4.6 sec 375 HP
$79.8k - BMW iX3 _FULLY OPTIONED_ 4.7 seconds 463 HP lives here in the pricing points…
$94.2k - ICE Macan GTS - 4.3 sec 434 HP

$57.5k - Model Y AWD Performance - 3.3 sec 306 miles range
$61.5k - BMW iX3 Base - 4.7 sec 463 HP 400'ish miles range
$79.8k - BMW iX3 _FULLY OPTIONED_ 4.7 seconds 463 HP 400'ish miles range
$80.3k - EV Macan Based 5.4 sec 355 HP
$84k - EV Macan 4 4.9 sec 402 HP
$89.9k - EV Macan 4S 3.9 sec 509 HP
$105.3k - EV Macan GTS 3.6 sec 563 HP
$112.7k - EV Macan Turbo 3.1 sec 630 HP

the EV pricing points "slot-in" to about the correct spot on their pricing tiers delivering similar acceleration/HP for similar price points…lowering the price of EV's destroy's this symmetry and consistency and value equation…

Porsche is being disingenuous when they have "pivoted" from EV's with the story that there is no demand for EV's - the lack of demand for EV's is patently false and easily demonstrated to be false, just take China as an example - there is no lack of demand for EV's in china - it's a lack of demand for a $200k Taycan vs. a $40k EV with similar stats - there is plenty of demand for EV's in china - there just in no demand for EV's at Porsche's historical price points based on performance inflicted pricing…

Porsche's pricing on ICE's is protected by mechanical complexity required to achieve Porsche's performance metrics - competitors lack the ability and/or willingness to engage Prosche because of the technical challenges to overcome the technical complexities to achieve Porsche's performance and reliability with their mechanical products (ICE vehicles) - there is no such technical "moat" for completetors to complete with Porsche on performance for EV's - so they can offer similar/idential/superior performance as Porsche at much cheaper price points - Porsche has no technical "moat" protecting their pricing anymore…they are screwed with EV's as they lack any special sauce or reason to buy Porsche's mechanically superior ICE drive trains…hence their pivot back to ICE vehicles where they have dominance and can charge for it…

_IF_ they lower the Macan EV pricing to be completitve but still "more" than BMW's offering (or any other EV for that matter) the EV products are now superior choice's at lower prices than _ALL_ of their ICE offerings

Porsche's trims/tiers/ladder buys you 0-60 time and HP - and currently the pricing teirs/trim/ladders fits across the entire product line - competitively prices EV's would decimate the pricing points of their ICE products…destroying margins, residual value, and their pricing points for their entire fleet of products…

Porsche is screwed…

my $0.02 YMMV

I agree but I actually think that it is more profound than that and it is no longer (really) a numbers game for the majority of perspective EV buyers - Porsche just hasn't realised that yet (it's only been 6 years after all!).

We all can accept that EVs drive differently and in many cases afford the satisfying instant torque and acceleration which in some cases is more pronounced than others. Actual numbers are:

The real differentiator in the premium market now to my mind is how an EV handles (additional weight), how far it will go on a charge and crucially how much do I need to spend to tick all of those boxes in my favour.

Battery technology is making this increasingly interesting and a competitive challenge to keep ahead. Limiting the comparison to BMW and Porsche, it's clear that BMW have currently stolen a march on Porsche on this front and crucially have taken a sharper focus on the pricing and packaging of products they manufacture. The ix3 (and iX4) is the best example of this just now - order books overflowing with deliveries late into 2027 (UK) for new orders

This is where Porsche will quickly lose EV ground as ultimately people in this premium market will vote with their wallets assuming that they can get over the psychological draw of not subscribing to the Porsche brand. Why pay substantially more for a product whose ultimate capabilities you will barely scratch when potentially (subjectively) a less dynamic BMW iX3 will offer much more for much less.

Call me naïve but this is easily within Porsche's grasp to resolve should they want to. They are a much lower volume manufacturer than BMW (0.28M compared to 2.2M) and I suspect less inclined to push for volumes preferring premium pricing over shifting metal.

I don't therefore think that Porsche are 'screwed' but the EV presence is potentially heading to an ever niche part of their business if not prepared to compete on price and better packaging.

 

[daveo4EV]

I agree but I actually think that it is more profound than that and it is no longer (really) a numbers game for the majority of perspective EV buyers - Porsche just hasn't realised that yet (it's only been 6 years after all!).

We all can accept that EVs drive differently and in many cases afford the satisfying instant torque and acceleration which in some cases is more pronounced than others. Actual numbers are:

The real differentiator in the premium market now to my mind is how an EV handles (additional weight), how far it will go on a charge and crucially how much do I need to spend to tick all of those boxes in my favour.

Battery technology is making this increasingly interesting and a competitive challenge to keep ahead. Limiting the comparison to BMW and Porsche, it's clear that BMW have currently stolen a march on Porsche on this front and crucially have taken a sharper focus on the pricing and packaging of products they manufacture. The ix3 (and iX4) is the best example of this just now - order books overflowing with deliveries late into 2027 (UK) for new orders

This is where Porsche will quickly lose EV ground as ultimately people in this premium market will vote with their wallets assuming that they can get over the psychological draw of not subscribing to the Porsche brand. Why pay substantially more for a product whose ultimate capabilities you will barely scratch when potentially (subjectively) a less dynamic BMW iX3 will offer much more for much less.

Call me naïve but this is easily within Porsche's grasp to resolve should they want to. They are a much lower volume manufacturer than BMW (0.28M compared to 2.2M) and I suspect less inclined to push for volumes preferring premium pricing over shifting metal.

I don't therefore think that Porsche are 'screwed' but the EV presence is potentially heading to an ever niche part of their business if not prepared to compete on price and better packaging.

I agree - this link is a raw data dump of all Porsche's EV, Hybrid, ICE with price, 0-60, HP - all prices are North American base price with no options…source of the data is porscheusa.com website as of about a month ago…



Porsche is slotting in the EV's at about the same price point as ICE cars with similar 0-60/HP - pay more get more acceleration and HP

_IF_ they lower the EV prices they will 'break' the matching 0-60/HP pricing - if they lower the HP they will not have a competitive product vs. other EV's

rock meet hard place…which is what Porsche is between with their dual ICE and EV pricing ladder…

 

[W1NGE]

I agree - this link is a raw data dump of all Porsche's EV, Hybrid, ICE with price, 0-60, HP - all prices are North American base price with no options…source of the data is porscheusa.com website as of about a month ago…



Porsche is slotting in the EV's at about the same price point as ICE cars with similar 0-60/HP - pay more get more acceleration and HP

_IF_ they lower the EV prices they will 'break' the matching 0-60/HP pricing - if they lower the HP they will not have a competitive product vs. other EV's

rock meet hard place…which is what Porsche is between with their dual ICE and EV pricing ladder…

Out of interest why does Porsche NA quote 0 - 60 mph rather than UK / EU 0 - 62 mph as per the Porsche website?

I suspect the forthcoming ICE / Hybrid Macan replacement in 2028 or so (yet to be named) will make a downward adjustment and under cut the then price of the Macan EV. If so that's another disrupter in the mix!

 

[whitex]

I agree - this link is a raw data dump of all Porsche's EV, Hybrid, ICE with price, 0-60, HP - all prices are North American base price with no options…source of the data is porscheusa.com website as of about a month ago…



Porsche is slotting in the EV's at about the same price point as ICE cars with similar 0-60/HP - pay more get more acceleration and HP

_IF_ they lower the EV prices they will 'break' the matching 0-60/HP pricing - if they lower the HP they will not have a competitive product vs. other EV's

rock meet hard place…which is what Porsche is between with their dual ICE and EV pricing ladder…

Made me think of trans oceanic travel industry. At first they only had ships. Then these 2 brothers invented an airplane, which seemed completely benign to the ships industry until larger passenger planes were developed and airlines started selling cross oceanic tickets - faster, cheaper (even though air travel was rather expensive compared to today). So what happened to people traveling on ships? Well, it turned into cruise industry - selling the experience, the prestige, rather than travel utility.

Perhaps that is where Porsche is heading with their ICE cars - status symbols, show/collector cars, attention magnets, emotional driving experiences. They will have to adjust their marketing though, just like ship companies had to do, nobody cares if you can get someone from Paris to new York in 7 days instead of 10 - a metric which might have had marketing value before commercial airliners. I am not sure what marketing metrics Porsche could use for their ICE lineup. Things which come to mind would be:

• Limited editions, charge more money for exclusivity
• High customization for car individualization, such as PTS+
• Racing performance in some ultra-light endurance categories - weight limit combined with long distances will keep EVs out of the picture for those (at least for now). Think next generation go-karts

They could then market EV's as a different segment, though would have to limit the overlap between the two (so for example, remove exclusivity and customization from EVs) until the ICE car become a niche market. Maybe they could spin off the Porsche EV lineup to a new brand completely - call it ePorsche, or PORSCHe ?

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