Electrify America to Add NACS Connector by 2025, While Continuing CCS Support

[daveo4EV]

we will be lucky to get a NACS adapter from Porsche in 2024…again I don't think they are motivated in this space…I'm guessing we don't even get an adapter or supercharger network access until 2025 or 2026.

for me personally if I don't hear what I want to hear from Porsche in the 2024 time frame - my next EV will NOT be a Porsche - it will be from the set of forward thinking EV vendors that have gotten on board with the clear trend and show me they are paying attention to what is happening.

who ever I purchase an EV from will have a clear story regarding NACS and not deafening silence.

I've bought my last CCS1 based EV (2020 Taycan) - _IF_ my next one has a CCS1 port it will only be with an adapter and supercharger access - I could care less about the native port - but it would be nice.

I'm in the market for another full EV in the 2025 and beyond time frame…we'll see what my options are - I'd prefer another Porsche - but not if they are sticks in the mud on this issue.

I do think it will be feasible for "motivated" EV owners of various brands to acquire an adapter from Ford/GM/Rivian and even potentially charge at a Tesla Supercharger with this adapter via some use of "apps" from other vendors - this is of course unless Tesla enforces "filters" to only allow vehicle's vendors with agreements to initiate a CCS session at their available CCS superchargers…

for example I can use the Porsche app to start a charging session for my son's 2022 Model Y w/CCS adapter at EA's sites - depending on the level of "concern" business practices and general lazyness of the supercharger charger software changes - there may be nothing stopping a motivated Taycan owner from getting an adapter from Rivian's online stop, and borrowing their friend's Ford 360 account and using the Ford app to initiate a charging session for their Taycan w/the NACS/CCS adapter from Rivian…this could simply work - or Tesla could implement software "filters" to prevent this sort of thing - we won't know until it's all deployed. And even if it works initially, it could be shutdown later when they notice it's happening…

I have in fact charged: Chevy Bolts, Tesla's, Audi eTron's, Rivians, Lucid Air and other CCS vehicles with my Porsche account using my free/included 30 min EA session - and I've personally never been billed for these sessions even though they were not Porsche vehicle's being charged - I have however been contacted by multiple people on this forum doing the same thing that they have been billed by EA for non-Porsche EV charging that was started by the Porsche app - the point here is while this can all "work" and could function - we all want official agreements in place because otherwise you could be subject to the whims of business policy and locked out of charging for business reasons rather than technical one's if they crack down on such "abuse"

of course Tesls could unilaterally provide both an adaptor and access with app based charge session activation without requiring _ANY_ EV vendor agreement - and it's reasonable criticism to question why they are not doing this - they don't need agreements with anyone to allow any CCS based vehicle+adapter to give them money at one of their sites…

but it's pretty clear this is not the path Tesla is pursuing so we're stuck in EV land with waiting for our favorite vendors to kiss Elon's supercharging ring so that we main gain access to the most functional/reliable CCS network in North America.

Elon is not known for being magnanimous…and Porsche isn't know for kissing a lot of rings - this could take a while.

this sucks.

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[ben1]

It is unfortunate that we did not succeed in making one global standard. Now we have the cost of adapting vehicles per region.
CSS1 and CSS2 were very close. NACS/Tesla have a completely different size.

Would have been better if US would have forced CCS2 (like the EU did). Or if Tesla opened up the network much earlier in europe to force europe to use Tesla-connectors.

I have an electric motorcycle from Zero. It comes with an American Type1 AC connector. Very annoying in Europe. I have to carry an additional adapter to go from Typ2 to Typ1.
Same will happen to cars. Some manufacturers will not do the effort to adapt the vehicle to the market.

 

[daveo4EV]

It is unfortunate that we did not succeed in making one global standard. Now we have the cost of adapting vehicles per region.
CSS1 and CSS2 were very close. NACS/Tesla have a completely different size.

Would have been better if US would have forced CCS2 (like the EU did). Or if Tesla opened up the network much earlier in europe to force europe to use Tesla-connectors.

I have an electric motorcycle from Zero. It comes with an American Type1 AC connector. Very annoying in Europe. I have to carry an additional adapter to go from Typ2 to Typ1.
Same will happen to cars. Some manufacturers will not do the effort to adapt the vehicle to the market.

I find it very interesting that Ford/GM kicked this whole thing off by going with NACS vs. CCS2 (European standard). It clearly has supply chain support, Tesla supports it and it lacks the design problems of CCS1 - prior to Ford's announcement I would've guessed if there was going to be a change it would be adoption/transition to CCS2's physical design…while I personally like NACS and feel it's a fine alternative (and a bit more elegant than CCS2) CCS2 appears to me to be a more conservative choice going forward. I have to believe access to the North American supercharger network without an adapter was a driving force in the decision - because electrically there is no difference between the two choices…although CCS2 supports 3 phase AC charging - that's not really a thing here in North America so that capability would go largely unused in the connector's design…

but yeah I think CCS2 would also have brought more EV vendor's on board more quickly and maybe force'd Tesla's hand in North America - but now we're in for a long ego/hubris driven slog until everyone capitulates…

 

[simcity]

Or if Tesla opened up the network much earlier in europe to force europe to use Tesla-connectors.

Outside of North America where 3-phase is more widely adopted in EV charging (and elsewhere) - in Europe/UK that would have restricted AC charging to single phase and basically 32A...so 7kW. There are many places where public AC charging of 22 kW capability is still more prevalent than DC.

So I don't think having a connecter here that can only do single-phase AC would necessarily be a positive thing.

Let's not forget in Europe pre Model 3 and Y - Tesla successfully used just the Type 2 connector for both 3-phase AC charging and supercharging. They only dropped it here as it was power limited beyond 200 kW and CCS2 became the nominal/mandated charge point standard for DC.

North America - completely different electrical system, standards and EV history etc.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I'm just gonna leave this here.. 'It's just a plug': A rival EV CEO isn't sold on Tesla's charging tech

And it must be so infuriating for a CEO to see that the customers just don't get "the most advanced technology". <Clarkson voice>"In the world."

 

[nickmdp]

I'm just gonna leave this here.. 'It's just a plug': A rival EV CEO isn't sold on Tesla's charging tech

And it must be so infuriating for a CEO to see that the customers just don't get "the most advanced technology". <Clarkson voice>"In the world."

The quote from the CEO isn't inherently wrong - " What we're really comparing is, is it a screw cap or is it a cork on the bottle, not the quality of the wine " - he just fails to realize that the 'wine' that we can get into our 'screw top bottles' with CCS charging has been pretty low quality and hard to find, while there's plenty of great 'wine' that you can get in 'corked bottles' with NACS.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

The quote from the CEO isn't inherently wrong - " What we're really comparing is, is it a screw cap or is it a cork on the bottle, not the quality of the wine " - he just fails to realize that the 'wine' that we can get into our 'screw top bottles' with CCS charging has been pretty low quality and hard to find, while there's plenty of great 'wine' that you can get in 'corked bottles' with NACS.

Oh, his take was so tendentious that I couldn't even.. and then it got better: I am certain he is dreading the inevitable: "Mr. Musk? I have a Mr. Rawlinson on the line for you.. he's asking about access to the Tesla Supercharger network, and what would be the discount for an ex employee.. Yeah, he says they sold at least 10k cars. No, wait, I misheard - it's 1k."

 

[daveo4EV]

I'm just gonna leave this here.. 'It's just a plug': A rival EV CEO isn't sold on Tesla's charging tech

And it must be so infuriating for a CEO to see that the customers just don't get "the most advanced technology". <Clarkson voice>"In the world."

I'm so far not a fan of what I've seen from Lucid (product or leadership) - and this article does nothing to improve my opinion - they/he are correct "it's just a plug" but he/they seem to be missing the larger picture that the current CCS1 plug design is both fragile and unusable and is contributing to problems with the North American CCS charging network.

I'm fine with them not moving to NACS - that's fine - do they have plans to have access to the supercharger network? will they provide an adapter…or maybe they don't want to call attention to the fact that they are limited to 50 kW charge rate at 400V fast DC charger's and probably have no plans to rectify that situation…but no that could not be it. Because it's just a plug.

 

[Jonathan S.]

I'm just gonna leave this here.. 'It's just a plug': A rival EV CEO isn't sold on Tesla's charging tech

And it must be so infuriating for a CEO to see that the customers just don't get "the most advanced technology". <Clarkson voice>"In the world."

In his limited defense (stress: limited), even at the original Bloomberg article (which is being summarized elsewhere, often in a seeming game of telephone operator ... if anyone here remembers that?), the full interview transcript is not posted (or at least I didn't see it when looking quickly, so apologies to Bloomberg if I missed a link), so perhaps the article left out some subtleties and caveats ... including how the referenced technology might have been the charging speed.

Then again, as daveo4EV pointed out, drawing attention to Lucid's max 50kW at Superchargers (and without any upgrade option as with the Taycan) both justifies not negotiating for Supercharger access and also makes any such possible future Supercharger access less of a plus for Lucid owners.
(Although given that Lucid's advertised charging speed is dependent upon a 350kW EA unit ... at an EA station that often has one unit occupied by a Leaf at the CHAdeMO plug, the other 150kW unit occupied by an ID.4 intent on charging to 100%, one 350kW unit broken, and the other 350kW unit occupied by a Bolt charging at 55kW ... probably better off visiting the nearby Supercharger at 50kW!)

Plus given Elon's public snipes at Peter, perhaps any negotiations would be as hopeless as WasserGKuehlt imagines!

 

[Jonathan S.]

[....] of course Tesls could unilaterally provide both an adaptor and access with app based charge session activation without requiring _ANY_ EV vendor agreement - and it's reasonable criticism to question why they are not doing this - they don't need agreements with anyone to allow any CCS based vehicle+adapter to give them money at one of their sites…

but it's pretty clear this is not the path Tesla is pursuing so we're stuck in EV land with waiting for our favorite vendors to kiss Elon's supercharging ring so that we main gain access to the most functional/reliable CCS network in North America.

Elon is not known for being magnanimous…and Porsche isn't know for kissing a lot of rings - this could take a while.

this sucks.

Yes please for the first option!

As for optimism regarding the second option (and so far the only option), with Ford, GM, Rivian, and Volvo/Polestar already on board (or, perhaps, having thrown themselves overboard at the mercy of Elon), that already puts a lot of pressure on BMW, MB, VAG, and Kiundesis.
And although Elon of course is anything but magnanimous, he has been clever enough to build out his proprietary charging network to help sell his EVs at a premium, then ditch the premium pricing when it was no longer sustainable, and perhaps now he's willing to let any EVs access his charging network in an attempt to achieve standalone profitability.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I'm fine with them not moving to NACS - that's fine - do they have plans to have access to the supercharger network? will they provide an adapter…or maybe they don't want to call attention to the fact that they are limited to 50 kW charge rate at 400V fast DC charger's and probably have no plans to rectify that situation…but no that could not be it. Because it's just a plug.

TBH I'm not that bothered about a max of 50kW charging rate - any port in a storm. But more seriously now: if Lucid won't even try to negotiate access to the Tesla network, it becomes one more (losing) point in the comparison against any of their rivals - and then they'll be properly fucked.

 

[feye]

_IF_ we get "access/authorization" to use the supercharger network…that is still an open question.

Adapter with cable extension. I had an adapter for many years, with failures. So good luck with that amazing solution!

Isn't it interesting, that all other companies in other markets create their own network, but not the American manufactures?

Also interesting, in China the gov forced T to change its existing chargers and all new sold cars to use the Chinese standard. Problem solved over here...

 

[satchurator]

With all the NACS announcements and US market adoption from 2025, I wonder does Tesla have any motivation to continue rolling out MagicDock for CCS1 cars?

 

[Jonathan S.]

With all the NACS announcements and US market adoption from 2025, I wonder does Tesla have any motivation to continue rolling out MagicDock for CCS1 cars?

A new installation was seen two days ago at a Fort Worth TX Supercharger station.
But otherwise, haven’t heard anything about the Magic Dock initiative for awhile.
And absent any government incentives, any further expansion seems unlikely given all the manufacturer agreements to allow CCS chargers with the upcoming adapters.

 

[satchurator]

With all the NACS announcements and US market adoption from 2025, I wonder does Tesla have any motivation to continue rolling out MagicDock for CCS1 cars?

Just heard on the Out Of Spec Podcast that there is new movement on MagicDock installs which is surprising and encouraging!

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