Once again...the battery...

[WasserGKuehlt]

1500+ recalled Taycans in US alone is not a good situation. Let's hope the recall does not widen.

They must be feeling very confident in their machine learning capabilities ?.

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[Tooney]

Porsche is being very coy about what they capture and how, but no, I would not assume there is anything you can do to influence their data collection. Short of, you know, driving around with a Faraday cage affixed to the car.

I think there is a way to opt-in/out to sharing operational telematics of your Taycan with Porsche. At least that is what they shared in a privacy email some months ago. I forget the details but I opted out. But then, who really knows?
Does opting in to sharing make your car more likely to be recalled?...... And if so, is that good or bad?

 

[T4S]

A thought I just had with the balancing issue with the new modules is that Porsche is mixing new chemistry modules with older chemistry. So even though the pack might be balanced when initially replacing the modules, they will become out of balance because the newer chemistry modules may charge/deplete at different rates. Replacement of modules shouldn't have as much of an issue if the chemistry is the same.

I am beginning to question whether Porsche considered the chemistry differences when approving for module replacements. If I am correct, then Porsche should only be replacing modules if the battery packs are the same chemistry as the new modules and full battery replacements if different chemistry.

What do you guys think?

 

[Tooney]

So would we have to enable something in the PCM for Porsche to include our Taycans as part of their field-data or do they have the data from all cars?

I don't know about PCM, but
From MyPorsche website page https://privacy.porsche.com/us/en_US/consent

 

[T4S]

I don't know about PCM, but
From MyPorsche website page https://privacy.porsche.com/us/en_US/consent

I also have that disabled as well, as soon as I purchased my car. Not sure if that means our cars are not counted as part of the recall since they are using ML on vehicles in the field.

The key question is: What vehicles are considered "in the field", all Taycans or only the ones that are still opted-in to collect data?

 

[Fish Fingers]

I am beginning to question whether Porsche considered the chemistry differences when approving for module replacements. If I am correct, then Porsche should only be replacing modules if the battery packs are the same chemistry as the new modules and full battery replacements if different chemistry.

What do you guys think?

I really, really hope it's not something we should need to think about.

Ideally, fully qualified engineers at Porsche will have actually thought about this (hopefully more than a quick natter over a cup of tea) ....... and will not be leaving it to some banana brained noggin from Manchester, who left school with 1 qualification in woodwork (me) and his rag tag cohorts on a global Internet forum (you lot) to remedy. ?

But you may well be right!

 

[T4S]

I really, really hope it's not something we should need to think about.

Ideally, fully qualified engineers at Porsche will have actually thought about this (hopefully more than a quick natter over a cup of tea) ....... and will not be leaving it to some banana brained noggin from Manchester, who left school with 1 qualification in woodwork (me) and his rag tag cohorts on a global Internet forum (you lot) to remedy. ?

But you may well be right!

Hahaha I would hope so too! But then we look at how the 240V Charger recall is going and how long it took before it was finally initiated (and are they just patching the problem or actually solving the root-cause?).

However, based on Porsche's history, I am confident that once they have enough information, they should be able to take action and resolve the potential underlying problem(s). Even if that means having to fully replace the HV batteries. It'll cost them a good chunk of money (which they definitely have), but it'll protect their brand image when they are only just getting into the EV space.

 

[Caraholic]

Still don’t believe these cell replacements are a good solution. Especially at the cost of said replacement. Really believe this is just a band aid to a bigger problem. If anything these replacements/repairs should come with a new warranty.

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

When I dropped off my car again for unrelated battery issues, I had a chance to talk to the tech who worked on my HV battery module replacement and I mentioned about the slight differences in voltages for the newly replaced modules. He said that because the modules are a newer chemistry, the BMS is programmed to charge/discharge those new replacements at a different rate than the rest of the modules. So apparently this is normal behavior as long as it doesn't get significantly out of balance.

However, I still want to try to "rebalance" my pack to ensure I don't get any RCODs (Red Circle of Death).

Interesting. What you heard from your tech is counter to what the Porsche Certified Battery Technician (one of 11 in the country at the time) said to me. Perhaps things have changed, but he specifically said the battery chemistry was identical - only the packaging changed.

In terms of recalls being 'pro-active', I can only speak from my brief experience working as a consultant to Ford on a recall situation some time ago. I was astounded by their reluctance to issue a recall given the high rate of failure (50+%) and the possible safety consequences. Eventually they did, but it was clear to me that this was the absolute last resort. From what I've seen from Porsche, they first send out a 'Service Bulletin' to the dealership to watch for the failure, but don't alert the owners. Based on occurrence rates, costs, total numbers etc., the bean counters then calculate when and if a recall is warranted.

For this reason, I encourage everyone to report problems to the NHSTA (nhsta.gov). I've done it a few times, and they actually had someone call me on one. It's the quickest way to get Porsche's attention on a potential recall.

 

[T4S]

Interesting. What you heard from your tech is counter to what the Porsche Certified Battery Technician (one of 11 in the country at the time) said to me. Perhaps things have changed, but he specifically said the battery chemistry was identical - only the packaging changed.

In terms of recalls being 'pro-active', I can only speak from my brief experience working as a consultant to Ford on a recall situation some time ago. I was astounded by their reluctance to issue a recall given the high rate of failure (50+%) and the possible safety consequences. Eventually they did, but it was clear to me that this was the absolute last resort. From what I've seen from Porsche, they first send out a 'Service Bulletin' to the dealership to watch for the failure, but don't alert the owners. Based on occurrence rates, costs, total numbers etc., the bean counters then calculate when and if a recall is warranted.

For this reason, I encourage everyone to report problems to the NHSTA (nhsta.gov). I've done it a few times, and they actually had someone call me on one. It's the quickest way to get Porsche's attention on a potential recall.

That is indeed interesting. What battery module part number was your replacement? I confirmed that my new modules' part number ends in J which matches the module that the technician explained to me he replaced it with.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Still don’t believe these cell replacements are a good solution. Especially at the cost of said replacement. Really believe this is just a band aid to a bigger problem. If anything these replacements/repairs should come with a new warranty.

Well, it depends on what exactly is the failure, doesn’t it? The “battery” is just a box of modules, with connectors and coolant passages. Unless the failure is in the case (design) itself, or altogether external to the battery (ie charging hw, wiring or logic), then replacing modules seems to be the logical fix.

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

Well, it depends on what exactly is the failure, doesn’t it? The “battery” is just a box of modules, with connectors and coolant passages. Unless the failure is in the case (design) itself, or altogether external to the battery (ie charging hw, wiring or logic), then replacing modules seems to be the logical fix.

You have far too much faith in Porsche's ability to diagnose and repair these batteries. What you're saying depends on Porsche's ability to correctly diagnose and fix the problem, which they are not able to do at this time. I had two modules replaced, one was faulty, likely from the beginning. It took me three weeks of haggling with the dealer to finally get them to admit there was even a problem with the battery. The second module was replaced 'out of an abundance of caution', because it MAY have been damaged or faulty. Now I have a battery problem that bricked the car and my OBD SOH went from 94% to 90% overnight. Does this sound like another module replacement is the logical fix?

 

[agility65]

Probably a nonsense question but -

I'm curious if there is a connection between the HV heater recall and the battery issues. Does the HV battery heater heat the batteries and the cabin? If so, I wonder if the batteries are charging too much at a temperature that is too low and causing lithium plating or something similar. If so, I would expect cars in colder climates to be more at risk.

"When attempting to charge a Lithium battery below 0°C / 32°F a chemical reaction referred to as “Lithium Plating” occurs."

"Do not charge lithium ion batteries below 32°F/0°C. In other words, never charge a lithium ion battery that is below freezing.

Doing so even once will result in a sudden, severe, and permanent capacity loss on the order of several dozen percent or more, as well a similar and also permanent increase in internal resistance. This damage occurs after just one isolated 'cold charging' event, and is proportional to the speed at which the cell is charged."

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

You have far too much faith in Porsche's ability to diagnose and repair these batteries. What you're saying depends on Porsche's ability to correctly diagnose and fix the problem, which they are not able to do at this time. I had two modules replaced, one was faulty, likely from the beginning. It took me three weeks of haggling with the dealer to finally get them to admit there was even a problem with the battery. The second module was replaced 'out of an abundance of caution', because it MAY have been damaged or faulty. Now I have a battery problem that bricked the car and my OBD SOH went from 94% to 90% overnight. Does this sound like another module replacement is the logical fix?

I have followed your unfortunate saga, and, if I were in your position, I don’t think I could have been as patient and understanding as you have. So yes, i do see why replacing the battery seems like the “right thing” to do by a supportive customer.

My earlier comment was meant from an engineering/design perspective - the battery was modular precisely so one doesn’t have to replace it altogether in case of a unit failure. This does assume, of course, the ability to diagnose and understand the root cause of the failure (but the same would apply even if the entire battery were to be replaced).

As to whether I believe Porsche understands the cause of failure: yes, I do, and they’re probably just being guarded with sharing the details. I would do the same in their place.

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

I have followed your unfortunate saga, and, if I were in your position, I don’t think I could have been as patient and understanding as you have. So yes, i do see why replacing the battery seems like the “right thing” to do by a supportive customer.

My earlier comment was meant from an engineering/design perspective - the battery was modular precisely so one doesn’t have to replace it altogether in case of a unit failure. This does assume, of course, the ability to diagnose and understand the root cause of the failure (but the same would apply even if the entire battery were to be replaced).

As to whether I believe Porsche understands the cause of failure: yes, I do, and they’re probably just being guarded with sharing the details. I would do the same in their place.

From an engineering perspective (I be one), Porsche does not understand the battery and these modules. They don't manufacture the battery cells, and clearly there is a lot they don't know about failure modes. The simple fact that my battery was subjected to a battery of tests by their best trained technician, and they still sent me off with a bad battery, indicates their 'understanding' of the causes of these battery failures is all retrospective. When something fails, they send it to LG, the manufacturer, and they wait for LG to do the analysis.

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