Taycan 4S -> Taycan Turbo S

[f1eng]

and there is no circumstance in which 12-15 min of driving will overwhelm Porsche's excellent steel brakes

That is weird.
The brakes are cast iron, not steel by the way.

At Willow Springs the brakes are at a stable temperature within 3 laps with a racing car, since they run so very much hotter than ambient.
OTOH I have only run racing drivers, Alan Jones and Mario Andretti, in F1 cars there, a long time ago.

I personally can’t see the point of composite brakes on a road car either though for performance but the OP clearly stated he chose the Turbo S, on which they are standard, because of the looks not the performance.

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[daveo4EV]

That is weird.
The brakes are cast iron, not steel by the way.

At Willow Springs the brakes are at a stable temperature within 3 laps with a racing car, since they run so very much hotter than ambient.
OTOH I have only run racing drivers, Alan Jones and Mario Andretti, in F1 cars there, a long time ago.

I personally can’t see the point of composite brakes on a road car either though for performance but the OP clearly stated he chose the Turbo S, on which they are standard, because of the looks not the performance.

I was responding to another participant's "Turbo" build where PCCB's are optional…you can save $7k on a Turbo by not optioning the pointless PCCB's…

for a TurboS you have no choice, but again the car lacks sufficient on-track stamina to thermally challenge/overwhelm Porsche's excellent cast-iron brakes…on 1.0 g street tires…

based on my personal experience w/Taycan on track - you will "challenge" the following systems on the vehicle _BEFORE_ the cast iron brakes…

• battery thermals - at near full pace @ Laguna on a 54F ambient morning you have the battery at Porsche's "limit" of 132F in about 6 laps - at which point you lose 60% power due to limiting by Porsche's software to preserve battery temp/longevity
  • you can't not recover the vehilce "on track" - I've tried - you must come in for a "rest"
  • 6-7 laps equated to about 12-15 min "on track on pace" time or about 3/5th of a 25/30 min HPDE track session - I was unable to run the full 25 min session at full pace due to battery thermals.
• battery power - no more juice - _IF_ you do not thermally overwhelm the Taycan's battery - you WILL run out of power - from the above scenario you've used about 53% battery in your 6-7 laps on track - so math tells us you have only about another 4-5 laps until you come off track due to lack of "fuel"
• Street tires - 5,100 lbs sedan - DOT tread wear street tires - big heavy car, lots of cornering and deceleration - I found the tires on the taycan were greasy and at their limits after about 5 laps - once the tires are greasy and you've overheated the battery and you're down on power, and you're running out of power - you can not longer push the Taycan to it's optimal performance level and therefore you're no longer stressing the brakes…

based on the 3 factors above - thermal endurance of the brakes are NOT a factor in my opinion or experience with the Taycan - given the 3 factors above - you're coming off track after about 20 min to:

1. let the battery cool down
2. charge the vehicle
   1. if there is no fast charging at the track - then this break will last many hours.

 

[tigerbalm]

I was responding to another participant's "Turbo" build where PCCB's are optional…you can save $7k on a Turbo by not optioning the pointless PCCB's…

I agree that optioning the PCCB's on a Turbo is un-necessary. I was actually surprised you could still do that in some markets. In Ireland, the PCCB option was removed from all Taycan's – except the Turbo S where its standard – about six months ago.

 

[Dee]

PCCB's are just so damn cool.
If you are rational you shouldn't buy a €200.000+ car, let's be honest here.
I always dreamed about having those on one of my cars, pure cuz it's so exotic technic, pure racing stuff.
So, did I want it on my second hand Gallardo?
No, cuz they wear out and replacing them would cost a fortune.
Did I want them on my Taycan?
Of course cuz they never wear out cuz of the regen!
That's just such a great practical advantage, to have PCCB's but never have to replace them!
Besides, PCCB's do last much longer than steel brakes.
They don't rust either, not even on the outside or middle part.
I just love them.
It's pure exotic high tech and that makes me a sucker for it.

 

[daveo4EV]

PCCB's are just so damn cool.
I always dreamed about having those on one of my cars, pure cuz it's so exotic technic, pure racing stuff.
So, did I want it on my Gallardo?
No, cuz they wear out and replacing them would cost a fortune.
Did I want them on my Taycan?
Of course cuz they never wear out cuz of the regen!
That's just a great advantage, to have PCCB's but never have to replace them!
Besides, PCCB's do last much longer.
They don't rust either, not even on the outside or middle part.
I just love them.
It's pure exotic high tech and that makes me a sucker for it.

_IF_ you do option PCCB's then at least go in "eyes open" - on the Taycan they are purely cosmetic and due to regen - the cast-iron brakes won't wear out either (unless you track your Taycan)…

but I agree they are super super cool from a pure tech point of view - if you view as a cosmetic option (like your wheel design choice) then fine - get the PCCB's - but don't think you "need" them for "track use"…cause as noted tracks use w/Taycan can't stress the cast-iron brakes.

 

[tigerbalm]

What's people's general opinion – I know this is subjective to perhaps countries and individual shops – but getting tyre changes in non-Porsche "general" tyre shops – with a PCCB equipped car.

Do normal community tyre shops appreciate what they are dealing with carbon discs and take care around them, etc?

I know Porsche use two long "bolts/bars" to safely remove the wheel when PCCB's are installed. Is that a thing in general?

 

[tigerbalm]

I hate carbon fibre as cosmetic trim. It is a structural material (The Prius PHEV tailgate inner structure is CF!

I totally understand this – especially from your race engineering perspective. I'm not even sure its "pretty" to look at!

I've never had it on a car – and you can option it out of a Turbo S for free – but my goal here is to have a relatively small number of options and to have the Turbo S as close as Porsche conceived it.

Would be so much better if it was used appropriately in the body frame or even the bonnet lid or something on the Turbo S to reduce some weight.

For me, it will be a novelty on this car. But I can imagine never choosing – or leaving it in – again!

 

[Dee]

What's people's general opinion – I know this is subjective to perhaps countries and individual shops – but getting tyre changes in non-Porsche "general" tyre shops – with a PCCB equipped car.

Do normal community tyre shops appreciate what they are dealing with carbon discs and take care around them, etc?

I know Porsche use two long "bolts/bars" to safely remove the wheel when PCCB's are installed. Is that a thing in general?

I just take the wheels of myself and bring them to them.

 

[daveo4EV]

What's people's general opinion – I know this is subjective to perhaps countries and individual shops – but getting tyre changes in non-Porsche "general" tyre shops – with a PCCB equipped car.

Do normal community tyre shops appreciate what they are dealing with carbon discs and take care around them, etc?

I know Porsche use two long "bolts/bars" to safely remove the wheel when PCCB's are installed. Is that a thing in general?

in my experience "normal" tires shops lack PCCB experience - and therefore it's a "risk" taking a PCCB equipped vehicle to a random tire shop…

a couple of things:

• my PCCB equipped vehicles to date have also been "centerlock" vehicles - and the actual porsche proceedure for Centerlocks is quite involved and beyond the scope of "normal tire" shops
  • most will try and use an air-gun for example - which is your first clue they have no idea what they are doing with your CL Porsche vehicle!! run, run fast, run far away
  • next they will lack the "grease" you're supposed to use
    • if they have it - they will use too much and it will "spread/flow" onto your wheels the first time you get up to speed
  • another issue - is the porsche proceedure to properly torque Centerlocks (not a Taycan issue mind you) is that you apply 400 ft/lbs of torque to the vehicle with all 4 wheels "off the ground" - this complicated and "unsafe" given lack of training
  • there are more details I'm not going into - but the 3 items above will be violated by 95% of tire shops…
  • add into the mix the fragility of the PCCB rotors and it's a recipe for nothing but expensive disappointment
• next tires and mounting is actually a low margin low profit business - MOST tire shops make their money "discovering" other service that needs to be done during the tire changing process
  • alignments
  • brakes
  • fluids
  • emissions

I have watched/witnessed the following at a tire shop (when in there with my mini-van)

• 911 turbo with centerlocks & pccb's
• use of air gun to remove the center lock nuts - a Porsche CL procedure no-no
• removal of a tire with a glancing blow to the PCCB rotor (probably fine, but not because the tech knew what they were doing)
• putting the tires on one at a time - lowering the vehicle - using an air-gun to re-torque the CL nuts with no grease while the tire is on the ground - 3 violations of Porsche's CL proceeduring in one go!!! rinse lather and repeat for the other 3 tires
• and I doubt the air-gun reaches sufficient 400 ft/lbs of Torque for the CL - so I'm guessing they sent the owner away with his CL's improperly torqued…now isn't that fun…

yeah I'm never taking a PCCB and/or CL vehicle to a random shop again…it's either Porsche dealer, or a shop with proven experience - it will be costly if they do it wrong.

none of things above are "normal" on a Porsche and most shops lack sufficient experience or staff that have been there more than 3 months to build up any experience.

for centerlock or PCCB vehicles I would only trust an experience porsche focused "shop" or the dealer…random shops will only disappoint you and lack sufficient experience with porsche's non-standard proceedures to engender any trust from me - and if they do cause a problem with PCCB"s it's beyond the shop's resources to make it right (a set of 4 PCCB replacement rotors is more than a Honda Accord for example - FACT) - this will be difficult to collect from your average tire shop even if they were at fault.

 

[Dee]

_IF_ you do option PCCB's then at least go in "eyes open" - on the Taycan they are purely cosmetic...

PCCB's are not only cosmetic, they DO brake you know?

And what's with that underscore like "_IF_"?
Are you trying to tie down your words to the line to prevent them from falling over?
Always see that in your comments, lol.

 

[tigerbalm]

Thanks @daveo4EV – appreciate that. I've a good relationship with my local tyre place – the owner is a neighbour and a Porsche owner (older 911) themselves – so I'll ask them.

I suspect he'll say – no way – due to the risk if damage was to occur. My hunch is to leave this to my Porsche Centre.

 

[W1NGE]

Never mind the ceramic brakes and their relative merits / demerits….I’m still in shock of the Turbo S price in Ireland!

 

[Jhenson29]

PCCB's are not only cosmetic, they DO brake you know?

Not to talk over Dave, but I think his point is that you already have brakes without the option, so the upgrade is purely cosmetic (little to no practical benefit). Still nothing wrong if that’s someone’s preference.

@daveo4EV - unsprung weight? Just curious.

And what's with that underscore like "_IF_"?

I always assumed markdown.

 

[tigerbalm]

Never mind the ceramic brakes and their relative merits / demerits….I’m still in shock of the Turbo S price in Ireland!

You think that's bad – check out 911 prices! At least EV's attract lower tax rates.

 

[Dee]

Not to talk over Dave, but I think his point is that you already have brakes without the option, so the upgrade is purely cosmetic (little to no practical benefit). Still nothing wrong if that’s someone’s preference.

@daveo4EV - unsprung weight? Just curious.


I always assumed markdown.

I was joking man.
Thx for spoiling it.
We've had discussion already so no news here, that's why.
Sorry if it wasn't that clear...

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