22KW charging

[daveo4EV]

dealers don't know squat about electric cars - hook it up to an 80 amp charger and see if charges at more than 11 kw - then you'll know.

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[porsche_coyote]

Hmmm. I wonder if the right approach isn't to have something like a Tesla Powerwall that does DC charging from a battery. Presumably it would be pretty straightforward, and you wouldn't have the same supply circuit limitations. It could even probably work with a 50A circuit...

 

[RobboWWFC]

Thanks.... that's a pain.. I never thought to ask as my Tesla was 2015 …. don't suppose it will be a retrofit when available?

It is what it is mate. I would of loved HUD but it wasn't available for the first spec cars.

 

[LovinTaycan]

Look what I just found on the Australia configurator.

 

[daveo4EV]

wow that’s an expensive option!

 

[PerPower]

Yes very expensive and not worth it if you ask me. 11 kw will do just fine when charging at home.

 

[daveo4EV]

it‘s half the cost of a 22 kW FastDC charger - which can charge at 22 kW on an 11 kW AC vehicle - I’m more and more convinced about by passing the on board AC/DC converter and just using the new EV’s FastDC support - all of which so far are at least 50 kW…

20 kw FastDC charger installed in one’s home, would fast charge your current & future EV.

 

[LovinTaycan]

it‘s half the cost of a 22 kW FastDC charger - which can charge at 22 kW on an 11 kW AC vehicle - I’m more and more convinced about by passing the on board AC/DC converter and just using the new EV’s FastDC support - all of which so far are at least 50 kW…

20 kw FastDC charger installed in one’s home, would fast charge your current & future EV.

Is it able to do this without the 22kw AC charger hardware option because it does it on the DC side?

What power requirements do you need at home to install one of these?

 

[daveo4EV]

the 22 kW charging option from Porsche enables L2/AC Charging at a 22 kW rate - that would require what ever AMPS/Power/1 Phase/3 Phase ROW charging - this is a very fast rate and matches the highest rate of any AC based L2 charger I’ve seen - the previous record being the 19.2 kW rate when you optioned a dual charger for a Tesla Model S…

there is a limit on what charge rate EV’s can achieve with AC power because you need to provide AC to DC converters (chargers) inside the vehicle to convert the incoming AC power to DC power for the battery. Currently the Taycan ships with an 11 kW AC/DC converter - so that is the limit of the vehicle’s charging when provided with AC power…

the onboard DC charging hardware is limited to 270 kW for 800 volts, and 50/150 kW for 400 volts

_IF_ you were to install a FastDC charger in your home - at say 15 kW capacity - charging your Taycan from the FastDC charger would charge at 15 kW rate because it would bypass the onboard AC/DC converter and just shove DC current directly into the battery…

I would prefer this because that means the on-board AC/DC converter would no longer be the limiting factor in maximum charge rate.

You can puchase FastDC chargers for about $8000 - so a $3500 AC 22 kW option is approaching 1/2 the cost of a low end FastDC charger - I’d consider the money better spent on a FastDC charger because it would benefit all EV’s - Even my ChevyBolt can charge at 55 kW via FastDC - so in my case it would work for all my EV’s and I’d no longer be limited by arbitrary “on board” AC/DC converter limits for how fast my EV would charge.

Porsche would have to modify their softare however, because right now FastDC charging is not subject to timer/profile limits and always charges immediately and to 100%…for a home FastDC charging you’d still want schedule and battery % control.

 

[daveo4EV]

What power requirements do you need at home to install one of these?

I can’t speak for europe. But for the US the math is simple:

Residential Power in the US is overwhelmingly (99.9%) 240 volts single phase feeds from the power grid - whole homes tend to be 100 amp, 150, 200, 400 amps - which > 75% of home having less than 150 amps for the entire home’s load…

AMPs required for say a 15 kW FastDC charger would be Watts / Volts

15,000 watts / 240 volts = 62.5 amps raw power
now the US has a continuous use clause for wiring and such -that requires you to only use 80% of a rated circuit load for > 2 hours of maximum power

62.5 amps / 80% = 78 amps - so you’d need an 80 amp breaker + appropriate wire gauge for 80 amps to run a 15,000 kW AC/DC FastCharger @ 240 volts AC single phase power. Now I’m going to guess there is some overhead to convert 240 volts AC to 400 volts DC @ 15,000 watts - so mostly likely you’d need an 90 or 100 amp breaker to get 15,000 watts 400 volt DC power “to the battery”

in North America the prevailing standard for L2 AC charging (240 volts) is J-1772 - the J-1772 specification currently covers up to 80 amps @ 240 volts AC power for charging a J-1772 vehicle - that is a maximum charge rate of 19,200 watts (19.2 kW) - and that requires a 100 amp breaker and appropriate wire gauge for that type of load (4 gauge or maybe 2 gauge wire)

so _IF_ you were to option a 22 kW charger for a North American Taycan - the maximum charge rate would be 19.2 kW (still faster than 11 kW but short of the 22 kW upper limit of the vehicle).

Now I’m sure Porsche could ”adapt” J-1772 and they could provide a 22 kW charger for the North American market, but installing that charger would required at least a 115/120 amp breaker. There are only a couple of J-1772 EVSE’s on the market that can do more than 60/48 amps - so the entire market for 22 kW J-1772 enabled equipment would the Taycan in North America - not exactly a “large” market for general use…

22 kW L2 AC support via J-1772 is difficult to imagine in the North American market given that the Taycan is the ONLY EV with that sort of capability - Tesla used to ship 80/72 amp capable EV’s but now mostly ships 32/48 amp vehicles. most other EV’s are 40 or 32 amp L2 J-1772

But also most EV’s being sold these days in North American can do at least 50 kW via FastDC bypassing the onboard AC/DC converter limits…

so a 12-17 kW residential FastDC charger would charge ALL EV’s faster - and still fit the power budget for most NorthAmerican Residential installations.

$3500 for a 22 kW AC charger on the Taycan just makes no sense to me. You’re not going to find a lot of L2 22 kW AC chargers in the world europe or otherwise…19.2 kW chargers in the US are very very rare birds - few if any - you're lucky to find 40 amp EV chargers (9.6 kW).

 

[Scandinavian]

$3500 for a 22 kW AC charger on the Taycan just makes no sense to me. You’re not going to find a lot of L2 22 kW AC chargers in the world europe or otherwise…

Well here in France there are quite a lot of 22 kW AC chargers. The Zoe can take 22 kW and that is a popular car here!

Also all the Tesla Wall connectors with 3 phase wiring will deliver up to 22 kW! And so will most of the Tesla destination chargers, and there are a lot of them. I guess we are fortunate to have quite a lot of 3 phase installations in Europe.

 

[Scandinavian]

Here is a screenshot of the European destination chargers. Mainly at Restaurants, Hotels, Sports complex and Golf Clubs etc. Really useful to take into account when planning a trip. And in Europe this is with the standard Type 2 connector, not Tesla specific.

 

[LovinTaycan]

I was told today by my salesperson that he spoke with Porsche USA, and that they said the 22kw on board charger is not approved in the USA for MY2021. My dealer confirmed it is not on his 2021 configurator.

I bet that changes before the end of the 2021 model year, but that is not what they are saying.

 

[LovinTaycan]

I can’t speak for europe. But for the US the math is simple:

Residential Power in the US is overwhelmingly (99.9%) 240 volts single phase feeds from the power grid - whole homes tend to be 100 amp, 150, 200, 400 amps - which > 75% of home having less than 150 amps for the entire home’s load…

AMPs required for say a 15 kW FastDC charger would be Watts / Volts

15,000 watts / 240 volts = 62.5 amps raw power
now the US has a continuous use clause for wiring and such -that requires you to only use 80% of a rated circuit load for > 2 hours of maximum power

62.5 amps / 80% = 78 amps - so you’d need an 80 amp breaker + appropriate wire gauge for 80 amps to run a 15,000 kW AC/DC FastCharger @ 240 volts AC single phase power. Now I’m going to guess there is some overhead to convert 240 volts AC to 400 volts DC @ 15,000 watts - so mostly likely you’d need an 90 or 100 amp breaker to get 15,000 watts 400 volt DC power “to the battery”

in North America the prevailing standard for L2 AC charging (240 volts) is J-1772 - the J-1772 specification currently covers up to 80 amps @ 240 volts AC power for charging a J-1772 vehicle - that is a maximum charge rate of 19,200 watts (19.2 kW) - and that requires a 100 amp breaker and appropriate wire gauge for that type of load (4 gauge or maybe 2 gauge wire)

so _IF_ you were to option a 22 kW charger for a North American Taycan - the maximum charge rate would be 19.2 kW (still faster than 11 kW but short of the 22 kW upper limit of the vehicle).

Now I’m sure Porsche could ”adapt” J-1772 and they could provide a 22 kW charger for the North American market, but installing that charger would required at least a 115/120 amp breaker. There are only a couple of J-1772 EVSE’s on the market that can do more than 60/48 amps - so the entire market for 22 kW J-1772 enabled equipment would the Taycan in North America - not exactly a “large” market for general use…

22 kW L2 AC support via J-1772 is difficult to imagine in the North American market given that the Taycan is the ONLY EV with that sort of capability - Tesla used to ship 80/72 amp capable EV’s but now mostly ships 32/48 amp vehicles. most other EV’s are 40 or 32 amp L2 J-1772

But also most EV’s being sold these days in North American can do at least 50 kW via FastDC bypassing the onboard AC/DC converter limits…

so a 12-17 kW residential FastDC charger would charge ALL EV’s faster - and still fit the power budget for most NorthAmerican Residential installations.

$3500 for a 22 kW AC charger on the Taycan just makes no sense to me. You’re not going to find a lot of L2 22 kW AC chargers in the world europe or otherwise…

Thanks for the detailed explanation. On the AC side, the onboard hardware it is not happening any time soon in the US market as Porsche has not yet to get it approved for our market.

 

[daveo4EV]

@Scandinavian thanks for the correction - I was wrong - apparently Europe is well covered by 22 kW chargers - the US has few if any 19.2 kW chargers - I've updated by original posting.

at the moment the 22 kW charger option really seems to only make sense in the non-US markets. And it doesn't quite fit the US market given it's unique requirements.

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