Big Discounts on new Taycans

[whitex]

I don't want to get in trouble for starting political flamewars, so apologies if this observation is inappropriate, but I'm not sure that subsidizing automobile finance companies sounds like a just way to use public money.

Why does it make sense to discriminate against J. Rando Taycanbuyer who hands a check to the dealership instead of churning finance paperwork?

Incompetence of politicians. The lease incentive is due to the loophole they left open when trying to exclude vehicles made by factories not controlled by US labor unions. They were so hell bent on trying to subsidize the unions (though failed as they couldn't get the majority vote for that) that they didn't pay attention to other details.

Of course this begs the question, why have any conditions at all? If you want to incentivize EV adoption, incentivize EV purchases, who cares whether a US union gets a cut or how much the purchaser makes? A 1,000 EV's on the road purchased by people making under $100K is just as good to the environment as the same 1,000 EV's bought by a millionaire for his friends or employees. Conflating multiple purposes, like kickbacks to unions or other lobbyists, pandering to your voter base, etc. just muddies the waters. We don't really have EV incentives, we have political incentives which happen to overlap with EVs a little. We used to have EV incentives, based on battery size and nothing else.

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[Jonathan S.]

A potential defense of the income limitation for EV tax credit qualification is that at higher income levels, the EV vs ICE purchase decision is less likely to be influenced by the tax credit.
(I have no idea if this is empirically true, or if anyone has even tried to research this at all -- I've worked on issues exactly like this, including for U.S. EPA, but not this particular question.)
So from the viewpoint of trying to maximize EV adoption for a given total amount of "tax expenditures" the focus should be on vehicles and purchasers below a certain price and income (respectively) who are likely to be more influenced by a $7.5k discount.
As for unions, battery origins, etc., that of course is trying to use the cause of EV adoption to achieve entirely unrelated political goals.
(The argument could even be made that the best strategy for *OUR* environment is to encourage adoption of EV models whose batteries are sourced abroad, a la my graduate school professor, Larry Summers.)

 

[violuma]

The argument could even be made that the best strategy for *OUR* environment is to encourage adoption of EV models whose batteries are sourced abroad, a la my graduate school professor, Larry Summers.

The list of things on which I disagree with Larry Summers is enormous, and just added one more entry. There is only one environment, and the sooner we all realize that, the better.

 

[bluesky]

A potential defense of the income limitation for EV tax credit qualification is that at higher income levels, the EV vs ICE purchase decision is less likely to be influenced by the tax credit.
(I have no idea if this is empirically true, or if anyone has even tried to research this at all -- I've worked on issues exactly like this, including for U.S. EPA, but not this particular question.)
So from the viewpoint of trying to maximize EV adoption for a given total amount of "tax expenditures" the focus should be on vehicles and purchasers below a certain price and income (respectively) who are likely to be more influenced by a $7.5k discount.
As for unions, battery origins, etc., that of course is trying to use the cause of EV adoption to achieve entirely unrelated political goals.
(The argument could even be made that the best strategy for *OUR* environment is to encourage adoption of EV models whose batteries are sourced abroad, a la my graduate school professor, Larry Summers.)

The way it has worked out that various cars like the Taycan dropped off the $7.5k rebate and the rising conditions on the tax credit makes me think that it was never about encouraging EV adoption counts, but really more about what manufacturer or what specific models are to receive Govt buyer incentives (which means where [what district] those cars are made, and by whom [which union and local]) in what would amount to more typical Congressional lobbying and horse trading.

 

[whitex]

A potential defense of the income limitation for EV tax credit qualification is that at higher income levels, the EV vs ICE purchase decision is less likely to be influenced by the tax credit.
(I have no idea if this is empirically true, or if anyone has even tried to research this at all -- I've worked on issues exactly like this, including for U.S. EPA, but not this particular question.)
So from the viewpoint of trying to maximize EV adoption for a given total amount of "tax expenditures" the focus should be on vehicles and purchasers below a certain price and income (respectively) who are likely to be more influenced by a $7.5k discount.

I can see your potential argument, though as you said the actual effectiveness should really be evaluated and quantified. Second order effects should also be considered, for example:

• If there was no EV incentives would Tesla have succeeded, or would they gone bankrupt trying to sell $100K EV's? Personally (anecdotal evidence of course) I probably would have never bought into EV's 10 years ago had it not been for the incentives, which in my mind offset the higher cost and risk of buying an EV. If Tesla had folded, would we have many EVs available today? Is incentivizing high end EV's funding innovation and progress? Note that eventually Tesla, after learning from the Model S and X produced a Model 3, which in turn jumpstarted a much greater EV adoption. Did foregoing the millions of tax revenue in 2012-2015 produce more or less EV adoption than the same money does today (adjust for inflation for accuracy)?
• Is excluding certain folks from the incentive acting as a deterrent - unintended consequences? Again, using an anecdotal example of myself, when shopping for cars recently, I instantly eliminated from my choices any cars on which others could get an incentive but I couldn't. It wasn't an emotional reaction, but rather a financial one - such an incentive creates an instant depreciation of $7,500 on any such car I buy. When shopping for cars for my kids I ended up with Corollas as better value for my money for my kids than say Model 3's. When shopping for my wife, I went with Audi which had the pass-though incentive through leases (of which I captured ~$6,500), otherwise I'd be looking at foreign cars not subject to the incentive (so presumably the opposite what Biden administration intended to incentivize). Unlike what Biden's average supporter thinks, people who have money don't just write blank checks and throw their money around. Often they have money because they know how to spend wisely. To me, being disqualified from an incentive on a car is equivalent of "you, must pay $7,500 extra tax on this vehicle", since fiscally it's equivalent. If the government thinks charging extra gas guzzler tax dissuades people from buying them, charging an extra $7,500 is an even stronger deterrent. If the argument is that it's ok to steer people who make more than whatever threshold ($150K for single filer?) away from cars the government is trying to incentivize, because there aren't that many of them to make a difference, then why bother excluding them, since there aren't many of them to make a difference? Another way to look at it, what percentage of total new car sales ($) is spent by people who are excluded from the incentives, then ask yourself, is it worth steering that money away from cars/manufacturers the government wanted to incentivize (such as US made, etc)?

 

[Polar993]

I am in the market for a Taycan ST GTS. There are so many 2023s currently on dealer lots across the US, including many in my local region near NYC.

I found a few with good options that fit my preferences. The MSRP for these cars is around $165-168k.

What do you think a realistic cash offer should be for one of these 2023s? Is a 15% discount too aggressive to ask? I know….it never hurts to ask, but I would like to know what you guys are seeing as far as current discounts on “leftovers” before the end of the year.

I also assume it’s better to make a deal before the end of the year instead of someone in the new year.

Would love your thoughts.

 

[andix]

Why should they?
New model is coming, market changing.
That's it.

 

[whitex]

I am in the market for a Taycan ST GTS. There are so many 2023s currently on dealer lots across the US, including many in my local region near NYC.

I found a few with good options that fit my preferences. The MSRP for these cars is around $165-168k.

What do you think a realistic cash offer should be for one of these 2023s? Is a 15% discount too aggressive to ask? I know….it never hurts to ask, but I would like to know what you guys are seeing as far as current discounts on “leftovers” before the end of the year.

I also assume it’s better to make a deal before the end of the year instead of someone in the new year.

Would love your thoughts.

Check out current incentives (see post #100 of this thread for example), then research the margin the dealer has, how long the car has been sitting (and therefore costing the dealer every month), the fact that a refresh is coming, and remember, the price can only go up from your first offer. End of year sale might hold some value to the dealer too, so be prepared to make serious offers.

Yes, there is an art to negotiation, which includes doing your homework ahead of time. Think of your preparation homework as work for which you are getting paid - money saved is money made, after tax too. But make no mistake, it is work as it does take time and effort, both the research and the negotiation itself. The research allows you to have the upper hand in the negotiation (and avoid making silly mistakes like trying to negotiate an impossible deal).

Good luck! Taycan is a great car, you will love driving it. You will probably love it even more if you get a good deal on it (I know I do).

 

[Murph7355]

How long cars are sitting unsold is the key one for me, now dealers have a lot of stock (I'm in the UK, but it sounds like the US is in a similar boat).

If cars are hanging around for months, then go harder than 15% IMO. Dealers here have me down that much after 6-8wks with cars sticking.

 

[unbiased]

I am in the market for a Taycan ST GTS. There are so many 2023s currently on dealer lots across the US, including many in my local region near NYC.

I found a few with good options that fit my preferences. The MSRP for these cars is around $165-168k.

What do you think a realistic cash offer should be for one of these 2023s? Is a 15% discount too aggressive to ask? I know….it never hurts to ask, but I would like to know what you guys are seeing as far as current discounts on “leftovers” before the end of the year.

I also assume it’s better to make a deal before the end of the year instead of someone in the new year.

Would love your thoughts.

Same situation here in FL, I actually gave the numbers in a different thread. MSRP on new Taycan around 159k. I got them to 32.5 k discount (25 k dealer discount, 7.5 k lease rebate from Porsche). Start with that number and see how they react, you want to buy or lease? They are charging almost 9% interest for their lease, its ridiculous but unfortunately the current reality. Always remember, they are desperate to sell the cars, all they can say is no. You can always walk out…they will call!

How did i get that large discount? Use those points:

- no one wants to currently buy electric cars, thats why they are sitting on dealer lots (research how many Taycan are sitting on dealership lots in your area)
- could go to Mercedes and get 40k discount on EQS, Tesla lowered their prices on the Plaid model by 45k over the past year, Lucid offering very aggressive leasing deals
- with such high interest rates people not buying expensive cars
- refresh model coming very soon, longer range, more power, updated infotainment system

I havent signed yet but actually waiting until next year. That would get you potentially even larger discounts, the 2023 models are ”1 year old” in 2024…that makes a big difference. Get a quote from one dealership and go to someone else and see whether they can improve it.

Another important note, ask them whether the car is a brand new car or a demo car. My dealer had a bunch of demo cars with very low miles (<50 miles) but the warranty had already kicked in. They gave me some vague explanation about porsche asking them to do so but it doesnt make sense. Anyways, make sure they are transparent because on those demo cars the warranty may have started months ago, not an issue if you are leasing but it would be an issues if buying and keeping long term.

Hope that helps.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

How long cars are sitting unsold is the key one for me, now dealers have a lot of stock (I'm in the UK, but it sounds like the US is in a similar boat).

If cars are hanging around for months, then go harder than 15% IMO. Dealers here have me down that much after 6-8wks with cars sticking.

I posted this in another thread, from (possibly paywall) How Electric Vehicles Are Losing Momentum with U.S. Buyers, in Charts - WSJ.
Tl;dr: in the US, EVs have averaged longer than 60d on lots in the second half of this year.

 

[Polar993]

Check out current incentives (see post #100 of this thread for example), then research the margin the dealer has, how long the car has been sitting (and therefore costing the dealer every month), the fact that a refresh is coming, and remember, the price can only go up from your first offer. End of year sale might hold some value to the dealer too, so be prepared to make serious offers.

Yes, there is an art to negotiation, which includes doing your homework ahead of time. Think of your preparation homework as work for which you are getting paid - money saved is money made, after tax too. But make no mistake, it is work as it does take time and effort, both the research and the negotiation itself. The research allows you to have the upper hand in the negotiation (and avoid making silly mistakes like trying to negotiate an impossible deal).

Good luck! Taycan is a great car, you will love driving it. You will probably love it even more if you get a good deal on it (I know I do).

I wasn’t planning to lease because the MF and RV of the Porsche leases are so bad! That said, it looks like there are some good deals with the current lease incentives.

If what @whitex is saying here is feasible, I would consider doing the same thing.

“
True, but it should be possible to get out of the lease minimizing those clawbacks. I recently did this with an Audi eTron, paid off the lease before the first payment was due (technically second as the initial paperwork included first payment). Encountered no problems with the payoff (it was all automated) other than title issuance, which was delayed as the leasing company did an e-release of the title before it was issued by the state, and they didn't have the title on file at the time of payoff completion. End result is when I called them 4 months later they realized they did receive the title at some point but because the lease was already paid off there was no event (payoff) to trigger sending me the title. A quick call and they said they are sending it out, but it was just before the holidays so they warned it might take a few days longer over the holidays. So it costed me $899 plus 2 weeks of interest to get a $7,500 lease incentive.”

How feasible is this?

Would all of these lease incentives still apply if you pay off the lease within the first month?

 

[agurkas]

The key here is that those lease incentives are on Taycan and NOT Taycan CT. CTs are only getting $7500 tax credit.

 

[whitex]

The key here is that those lease incentives are on Taycan and NOT Taycan CT. CTs are only getting $7500 tax credit.

Very interesting. I knew that CT’s hold their value more (it’s a more practical car, 2 model years less of used ones, Porsche issues less allocations for them so generally less of used CT’s even for model years they existed, plus people who buy practical cars tend to hold onto them longer further shrinking used stock), but it’s still interesting Porsche is not offering same incentives. Probably much less inventory sitting on lots.

PS) I think if Audi offered an estate or even sportback eTron GT, they would have moved many more of them. The small trunk is the reason I never got the Taycan sedan or the eTron GT.

 

[agurkas]

Very interesting. I knew that CT’s hold their value more (it’s a more practical car, 2 model years less of used ones, Porsche issues less allocations for them so generally less of used CT’s even for model years they existed, plus people who buy practical cars tend to hold onto them longer further shrinking used stock), but it’s still interesting Porsche is not offering same incentives. Probably much less inventory sitting on lots.

PS) I think if Audi offered an estate or even sportback eTron GT, they would have moved many more of them. The small trunk is the reason I never got the Taycan sedan or the eTron GT.

Just look at the inventory of sedans vs CT. Kind of like E-class mercs sedan vs wagon. When I was looking for one for my wife nationally, I came away with about 1:10 ratio of CTs to sedans. The config I wanted was available in about every other dealership if I wanted a sedan. CT... there were 3 nationally that fit even a minimal requirement if I included both CPO and new.

So I had zero surprise there were no incentives for CTs from PCNA.

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