Charging to 100%, why not?

AnloTaycan2022

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Sorry guys, maybe has been discussed previously but close to getting a GTS. Simple question to more experience owners, why not charge to 85% and not to 100% every time? Hear me out, on other cars (or electronic devices per se) like Tesla you dont want charge to 100% every time to preserve the battery, HOWEVER, Tesla allows you to use 100% of the battery capacity. On the Taycan only roughly 90% is available to the driver (dont have the exact numbers), remaining 10% are a buffer locked by Porsche.

That begs the question, even if you charge to 100% you never actually charge the battery capacity technically to 100% but only 90%. So why the caution?

If anyone is wondering why ask this question… live close to an EA charger and would charge the car for free…makes more sense to charge to 100% to have less trips to the charger.
Ultimately the question is why charging at 100% if you do not need the full capacity. Porsche recommends 85% generally unless you need to travel far. Also, you can connect your car every night to get that 85% fresh from the start every morning and you will not damage the battery.
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So the consensus is that multiple small charging sessions each week up to 85 would be better than one single larger charging session up to 85 from, say, 40?
 

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So the consensus is that multiple small charging sessions each week up to 85 would be better than one single larger charging session up to 85 from, say, 40?
I don't know about consensus, but that's what the actual battery engineer in the video posted by Scandinavian stated pretty clearly.
Porsche Taycan Charging to 100%, why not? 1703793392507
 

Donar

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Personally I don’t care about those small details.

I just charge it to 80% when soc gets below 50%. And up to 100% when I need the range. Car will not stand still for more than max 3 days anyway.

My Polestar gets charged to 100% always; for a year also once a week to 100% at a supercharger. Degradation in 2.5 years and 110k km I estimate at ~5% based on gom.

No reasons for concerns for me to finetune this behavior for charging the Taycan which has much bigger buffer.
 

Ferdinand

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All interesting, thank you. I almost always learn a new detail or two in threads on charging. Recurrentauto.com collects information from a variety of EVs. You can add your own Taycan and get monthly reports on it, for free. For example, here are a couple of charts from my 2021 4S’s latest report. It’s gratifying to see that Taycan is well above most other EVs in range. Recurrentauto tracks your charging sessions; they recommend generally keeping the charge between 30% and 80%.
Porsche Taycan Charging to 100%, why not? IMG_5026
Porsche Taycan Charging to 100%, why not? IMG_5027
 


Tooney

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Yes. As in, faster than the typical 3kW ChargePoint L2 public unit.
Plus you can get quite a few kWh at the ABB R&D facility in Bloomfield CT before the security guard arrives. (Ask my wife for details on this inadvertent strategy!)
Plus once the Auburn Mall EA was experiencing some sort of malfunction and delivered in the triple digits.
(Fortunately the Magic Docks are not subject to the same restrictions, or at least Elon is flouting the rules.)
Did you happen to be trying to charge at EA Stratford CT on Dec 23? ;)
Porsche Taycan Charging to 100%, why not? 1703819703909
 

whitex

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@whitex -- it sounds like we have similar backgrounds and experiences as I've owned every Tesla S3XY + my 2010 Roadster. Some were leases, others purchases. And overall I'd say you/I have a similar approach to our day to day use of our vehicles, so kudos for our alike thinking there.
I just followed the manufacturer recommendations, which was keep it plugged at home, charge to 90% daily, more on trips. Worked out great. When selling the cars, I never hid how I used my cars, free for the next buyer to accept or buy another car instead.

FWIW, I think the OP leasing is a valuable tidbit of data, but opens up another question: it is socially irresponsible to not take good care of something during your ownership?
I can see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree. I am aware of and support social responsibility, however I don't see charging to 100% every day at a DC charger as anything dishonest or irresponsible (socially or otherwise). Even for people who own their cars, I would not see it as socially irresponsible to DC charge to 100% daily, it just puts more wear on the car, no different than someone tracking their car regularly (though for a lease, I would check fine print as some leases will restrict track racing). If you use your car faster, its value drops faster, that's all.

The way I see this issue is, if one was to hide the fact that they are putting extra wear on the car, that would be dishonest, like rolling back an odometer. However, if you operate the car as allowed by the manufacturer, I don't see anything wrong with it. It would be like saying "I know the lease says I can do 12K miles a year, but if I want to be socially responsible I should only drive 2K miles a year and only during summer months, the car will have much less wear on it for the next owner" - my take is "you paid for 12K a year, you can use 12K a year, and yes you can drive it during winter through salted roads as that is within the spec of the car, you can even drive it 20K a year in Alaska if you're willing to pay lease mileage overages per contract".

Chances seem slim that in a lease period (typically 36-48 months) that the battery would wear prematurely, or notably. Even if all the charges were DC/fast. But that isn't really "paying it forward" onto the next owner(s) by doing that, is it?
The battery health can be retrieved from the BMS, including KWh charged via DC charger and other stats, no different than inspecting an odometer, measuring tire wear, or checking the car for rust from road salt. The leasing company has to factor in the wear people are allowed to put on their cars, which includes the battery wear. Some Taycan lease returns will have very few miles on them while always garaged and never seen winter, and others will have full mileage and garaged outside in all kinds of weather - all normal. acceptable wear and tear on the car. I see nothing dishonest or irresponsible in using the car for what it was designed for. If Porsche wanted to claim that the car is not designed to be DC charged to 100% often, they should put limits on that, maximum number of times per year you can DC charge, etc. Those limits should be made clear to anyone buying, so they can make a decision on value of such limited car.

As you said, the warranty terms might differ from the owners manual.. And one's social conscious on a leased vehicle likely differs than that of someone who bought/owns there car, too.
Again, whether leased or owned, the only difference is that if you own it, you lower your own residual value, and when you lease, the drop of the residual is prepaid with a lease - if you return a car in a better condition you're not getting any credit back. If you own it and want to cut out the back seats, put in a roll cage, remove doors and weld sheets of metal in their place to reduce the weight, all the power to you even if it does lower the residual value. If a lease allowed that, you should feel free to do that too, though I am certain most if not all leases require you to bring the car back to factory specifications before returning them.

Side note, I always lived by "treat others as they treat you" or "don't screw others unless they tried to screw you". Given how many under-handed ways dealers try to make money with hidden fees, forced products, misinformation, last minute jacked interest rates, fine print exceptions, I have no problem "doing onto them as they do to me". I have bought cars from a few honest dealers (not the majority sadly), when I made and honored gentlemen's agreements such as "I will not pay off the lease within 90 days of funding" because they told me they lose an additional commission if I do that (or I would just give them the equivalent in the price of the car if it was less than the interest for 100 days - honesty pays off when making deals with me). But if instead they try to bullshit me with "it's illegal for you to pay off your lease within 6 months", I had zero scruples paying it off before the first payment is due (true story from buying a car earlier this year by the way). On another occasion, different dealer, I remember once a dealer signed off on a deal, then came back at last minute "sorry, we just found a stone chip on your 4 year old car which we didn't see an hour earlier when inspecting the car, that will be $300 more for the new car". Interestingly their finance guy was incompetent and when filling out the paperwork, he applied my $500 "negotiation deposit" twice, once by lowering the agreed upon price, and then again subtracted from the total owed (I bought it cash). If they hadn't tried to screw me for the $300, I would have pointed out their mistake, but since they did, I said nothing, bought the car. I heard from them 2 years later(!), some audit caught this mistake, I told them their problem, we agreed on final check I gave them, not my problem. What's worse (for them) is because of that I never ever went back to that dealership, or any other dealership owned by the same family again. Same for a dealer who negotiated with me for hours, only to take my deposit and sign a purchase agreement for an in-transit car, then called me the next day that "they made a mistake" and want another $2,400 or they cancel the deal. I told them no, so they refunded by deposit and cancelled the deal - I never went to that dealer ever again, nor to any other dealer owned by the same parent company, and I even got $900 from the manufacturer towards any other car from their brand, when I wrote them a letter how one of their dealers conducted themselves. But I think I'm far enough on a tangent here. Bottom line is honest dealers I treat honestly, dishonest dealers I try to avoid. Just for this forum, Porsche or Charleston, SC treated me with honesty, direct communications, no bullshit, no forced products, no hidden bullshit fees, responsive to questions (and honest answers, no making up answers to pacify me), I would absolutely buy from them again even though they are about as far as possible from my house within the continental United States.
 
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unbiased

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The car companies allow charging until 100%, how is that unethical? Then you should only hand wash the car and have it waxed every month to make sure that next owner has a pristine exterior. While you are at it, only drive <5000 miles a year so there is minimal wear and tear.
 


WasserGKuehlt

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I may be wrong, but my interpretation of the point @arijaycomet was trying to make is that prolonguing the life of an EV battery is "better for the planet" - and not that it is, in fact, unethical in the legal sense.

FWIW, I do agree with that view; I have read plenty of posts here by Taycan owners who intend(ed) to maximize their free EA charging benefit. More power to them, but if you're asking for opinions thereof, be prepared to hear less than flattering ones.
 

Tooney

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The car companies allow charging until 100%, how is that unethical? Then you should only hand wash the car and have it waxed every month to make sure that next owner has a pristine exterior. While you are at it, only drive <5000 miles a year so there is minimal wear and tear.
As OP, you posed the question, why not charge to 100%?
Seems like your question was only rhetorical.
As you stated:
If anyone is wondering why ask this question… live close to an EA charger and would charge the car for free…makes more sense to charge to 100% to have less trips to the charger.
Hey, you go do your thing with your EV.
 

Bill33525

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FYI, for the Tesla model 3 from China production is adviced to charge always to 100% and not 85%...
That's because of the cell chemistry. LFP batteries can be charged to 100% each day
 

whitex

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I may be wrong, but my interpretation of the point @arijaycomet was trying to make is that prolonguing the life of an EV battery is "better for the planet" - and not that it is, in fact, unethical in the legal sense.
There is no such thing as "unethical in legal sense". Ethics and legality are completely orthogonal topics primarily because ethics is very personal, almost everyone has a different set of ethics (which usually partially overlap with others of course), while laws are the same for everyone. Laws are not supposed to attempt to enforce ethics for the same reason, though there are plenty of examples where ethics of democratic majority creeps into law, for example prostitution and its legality. Ever studied the classic trolley problem taught in almost every Ethics 101 class (also philosophy classes)? ;)

The less you drive, the better for the planet it is (energy usage, tire usage, creating congestion for other cars, etc, etc). But if we take this argument to the extreme, every person breathing is contributing to the CO2 emissions (humans exhale an estimated 1.94 gigatons of CO2 into the air each year!), so if everyone would just spend more time stationary in their beds, use less energy, we could cut some of those emissions (and that might make them less healthy, which will reduce their life expectancy, therefore further reduce their lifetime CO2 emissions). Heck, you could argue any war which kills off large swaths of population is better for the planet (perhaps that's why the name Green Peace, the second word being there to exclude wars as the green solution? ;)). An event which annihilates all humans on Earth would arguably benefit the planet in many, many ways (come on green comet!). I am not advocating for any of those by the way, simply illustating various arguments which can be made.

FWIW, I do agree with that view; I have read plenty of posts here by Taycan owners who intend(ed) to maximize their free EA charging benefit. More power to them, but if you're asking for opinions thereof, be prepared to hear less than flattering ones.
Absolutely! Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one. 😝 Ethics is closely related to opinions. Some believe having sex outside of marriage is unethical, others don't. Some believe divorce is unethical, others don't. Some believe offering assisted suicide is unethical, others believe individual rights to decide about one's body. Some believe democracy is discrimination, since by definition majority forces their decisions on minority, others will claim otherwise. Abortion, death penalty, taxes, due process, whether to charge a Taycan daily to 50% 70% or 85% for maximum battery longevity, etc, - list of topics on which not everyone agrees is unending. Welcome to the diversity of the world!

I believe in free exchange of ideas, and yes opinions. I don't take offense from other people's opinions. I don't usually share my opinions on others unless they ask. I don't expect them to agree with me either, nor should they expect me to agree with them, however I am always open to changing my opinion if presented with a logical argument. I fully respect everyone's right to have their own opinion, though I do wish people would stop trying to force their opinions or ethics on others when it does not infringe on their rights. I believe in personal freedom, limited primarily by freedom of others. To quote supreme court justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: " The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins."

This is the internet, if you ask for opinions, you obviously want to hear different opinions. If someone is looking for an echo-chamber to reflect only their own views, no shortage of those on the internet, create one if you cannot find it "SavePlanetByWalkingEverywhere.com" or "EarthIsFlat.com", perhaps a subreddit on similar topic. Internet is large enough, no matter how fringe your views are, you will find some people out of the 8 billion population to agree with you.
 
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I guess you are a fan of Thanos ;)
 

whitex

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I guess you are a fan of Thanos ;)
No feelings about Thanos at all. Not a big comic book fan (had to google the name). Given a quick google glance, perhaps Star Trek Q would be a good stand-in from my sphere of interest ;)
 
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“I am inevitable”…one of the classic lines of movie history.
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